Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:43 am

Speaking of familiars... Where's Arf? I haven't seen her, yet? ;/

Muramasa wrote:I can't say I like the idea of a linker core being gender specific. You could have it that Ranma's magical affinity is changed depending on what gender he/she currently is. That might work.

Well, I'm one of those people who like Ranma-chan stories. Only having a linker core as a girl is a means to an end (spending time as a girl), not based on gender. I figure that her body being magically-created raises the chances that it comes with a linker core. Lottery winner! ;p But I wouldn't want Ranma to be stuck or like being a girl; it'd feel like a cop out, to me, in this case.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:50 am

Or the spring could have just had a Magic User drown in it and so the linker core is a semi undiscovered aspect to the curse? Its not like the style of magic using Linker Cores is taught anywhere I've noticed on Earth.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:08 pm

I guess that's a possibility. Though if it were discovered that one can become a mage like that, I imagine that a lot of conflict would arise. Especially since it would be a lot better than the process for creating artificial mages, and even more so if the mages produced are of high quality.

Though, I suppose that it could also lead to an interesting storyline that explores Earth's past in relation to how they used magic, and whatever that might lead to in a present setting and storyline.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Fitzgerald » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:05 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Well, I'm one of those people who like Ranma-chan stories. Only having a linker core as a girl is a means to an end (spending time as a girl), not based on gender. I figure that her body being magically-created raises the chances that it comes with a linker core. Lottery winner! ;p But I wouldn't want Ranma to be stuck or like being a girl; it'd feel like a cop out, to me, in this case.


Another take on this could be that Ranma-kun is pretty average magically ie D-class in Nanoha terms, while Ranma-chan has high levels of magical potential at least being able to fly ie A-class.

Although for humor's sake and to play with the fact that Nanoha started off as "Real!Robo as Magical Girls" that Ranma immediately launches into the Tropes of Super!Robo as Magical Girls.

That's to say implausible training sequences, grandstanding speeches, being a massive Ham & pulling off acts of Hot-bloodedness.

Followed by being fairly successful at it, much to the frustration and annoyance of the TSAB scientists studying Ranma.

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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Muramasa » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:40 am

Fitzgerald wrote: Another take on this could be that Ranma-kun is pretty average magically ie D-class in Nanoha terms, while Ranma-chan has high levels of magical potential at least being able to fly ie A-class.


The shift from D to A and back to D is too much of a liability. Flying is too dangerous due to the curse being triggered at exceedingly inconvenient moments.


Spokavriel wrote:Or the spring could have just had a Magic User drown in it and so the linker core is a semi undiscovered aspect to the curse? Its not like the style of magic using Linker Cores is taught anywhere I've noticed on Earth.


sigh... I don't mean this as anything disrespectful against you or anything and admittedly this gripe is due to nothing but my own personal taste but why can't Ranma be allowed to just get by on his own power? Why does he need handouts like a cursed jusenkyo pool shelling out free linker cores?

Well, I'm one of those people who like Ranma-chan stories. Only having a linker core as a girl is a means to an end (spending time as a girl), not based on gender. I figure that her body being magically-created raises the chances that it comes with a linker core. Lottery winner! ;p But I wouldn't want Ranma to be stuck or like being a girl; it'd feel like a cop out, to me, in this case.


I have nothing against you writing a Ranma-chan story, I just feel the justification in this case is a bit too weak. Ranma having to rely on his cursed form just to be able to cast magic is too convenient a plot device. To me, it's a cop out.

Most of the benefits he'd normally gain with magic, he's already received due to developing his ki. Depending on how much (or how little) potential Ranma has for magic, it may not even be worth while developing it at all. As it is, due to it's BIG drawback I can just as easily see Ranma say 'screw it' and purposefully avoid using magic all together. Maybe even go so far as to say ki can be just as good, if not BETTER than magic.

...actually, that may make for an interesting fic in and of itself :roll: .
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:32 am

I don't think it's too convenient, or a cop out. Mages are rare on Earth, so it'd be even more convenient, and a bigger cop out, to make Ranma a born mage to begin with, just because. Plus, having him be a mage as a girl could be used to explain why her genes express such exotic traits, regarding both racial ancestry and familial ancestry. I want it to be a Ranma-chan story, but I always take the substance very seriously. It will never be, "just because."

As for the thing with ki and magic use, I don't see why he wouldn't want to learn to do things with magic. Especially if he has a high enough rank to fly. (He could show off to Herb, too. ;p) It'd be no different than how he learns such things as the moko takabisha and the hiryu shoten ha, which he usually holds in reserve unless he feels the need to use them. Plus, if he can use magic to at least employ a moko takabisha-like attack, then all the more reason for him to not say, "screw it," because it'd be useful. And the only useful things he has shown to never use again were techniques that had been sealed in the first place. I believe that it would be very unlike Ranma to not learn how to use something that could be utilized in martial arts.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Muramasa » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:22 am

I don't think it's too convenient, or a cop out. Mages are rare on Earth, so it'd be even more convenient, and a bigger cop out, to make Ranma a born mage to begin with, just because. Plus, having him be a mage as a girl could be used to explain why her genes express such exotic traits, regarding both racial ancestry and familial ancestry. I want it to be a Ranma-chan story, but I always take the substance very seriously. It will never be, "just because."


But that's the problem. As I see it, Ranma can only cast magic as a girl "just because." Again, I'm not saying don't write a Ranma-chan story. But, in my opinion you should find a different reason for Ranma to remain a girl. Your current plot device is too generic, relies on a deus ex machina and is basically a hand wave explanation.

Also Ranma being a mage and Ranma having magical potential are two different things in my book. And no, I don't think it's a cop out at all. Just because he never used it doesn't mean it was never there. And we already have an explanation as to why Ranma-chan has red hair (and it has nothing to do with magic). In order for the fantastic explanation to be relevant (magical ancestry etc.), the mundane explanation (she gets it from Nodoka) would have to be debunked. Otherwise it's just speculation and irrelevant.

As for the thing with ki and magic use, I don't see why he wouldn't want to learn to do things with magic. Especially if he has a high enough rank to fly. (He could show off to Herb, too. ;p) It'd be no different than how he learns such things as the moko takabisha and the hiryu shoten ha, which he usually holds in reserve unless he feels the need to use them. Plus, if he can use magic to at least employ a moko takabisha-like attack, then all the more reason for him to not say, "screw it," because it'd be useful. And the only useful things he has shown to never use again were techniques that had been sealed in the first place. I believe that it would be very unlike Ranma to not learn how to use something that could be utilized in martial arts.


Again, if Ranma can't use magic as a guy than flying is too dangerous. It only takes one inconvenient change and 'BOOM!' Ranma falls to his death due to stupidity. Also if Ranma knows the ki equivalent of the moko takabisha, why would he need a magic version? He already learned the technique. It's redundant. Beyond that, there's not much else I can argue about ki vs. magic until the theoretical limits of both powers are explored. For instance I don't see why ki is unable to do what magic can "just because". The limits to both powers is just too vague right now. Until then, I can't say anything else about it. All I know is ki is vastly different from mid-childa style magic. But that's just the 'what' , I don't know the 'how' or the 'why?' .
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:28 am

Murumasa, you do realize that in the creation of fanfiction stories authors do tend to do things the way they want right? You act like this is out right nerfing Ranma. When its more along the lines of incentive to have more Ranma-chan screen time. Its also an incentive that can be held off on coming to light just due to the nature of his world until whichever point you wish to diverge.

With the tone in your posts I can't avoid asking are you intentionally trying to kill off fics with situations you don't like before they happen or honestly trying to help the Author have more options to work with?

You know a similar Girl Side magic situation has been in quite a few fics. "Only girls in our family can manifest their magic potential" < Used to death and beyond. Making it so there is something from the springs to explain it is no worse but at least its not been done anywhere near as often.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Muramasa » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:19 pm

Spokavriel wrote: Murumasa, you do realize that in the creation of fanfiction stories authors do tend to do things the way they want right? You act like this is out right nerfing Ranma. When its more along the lines of incentive to have more Ranma-chan screen time. Its also an incentive that can be held off on coming to light just due to the nature of his world until whichever point you wish to diverge.

With the tone in your posts I can't avoid asking are you intentionally trying to kill off fics with situations you don't like before they happen or honestly trying to help the Author have more options to work with?

You know a similar Girl Side magic situation has been in quite a few fics. "Only girls in our family can manifest their magic potential" < Used to death and beyond. Making it so there is something from the springs to explain it is no worse but at least its not been done anywhere near as often.



Right, sorry. I'm not intending to stamp out the idea as a whole. However I do feel I should point out aspects of the idea that need work. I want to see more Ranma/Nanoha crosses out there.

Anyway, hows this: Ranma is sent on a mission and due to something he encounters (a lost logia, an attack etc.) his linker core ends up damaged, but the linker core of his girl half is discovered to be unaffected.

That in itself is a handwave. But, if we tie it into in-universe events in Nanoha, (Such as the incident that nearly permanently crippled Nanoha herself) than the plot device becomes a small bit of fridge brilliance.

That's where the justification comes from. Ranma was there to protect Nanoha from an incident that nearly ended her career as a mage and got seriously hurt himself.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Spokavriel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:47 pm

But the idea of having a Linker Core from Jusenkyo was really just the same kind of thing and trying to tie it to Ranma's universe.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Muramasa » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:53 pm

Spokavriel wrote: But the idea of having a Linker Core from Jusenkyo was really just the same kind of thing and trying to tie it to Ranma's universe.



My approach (the current one. Not saying you should use it.) Attempts to tie in both universes together. For the moment I'm going with the idea that Ranma's cursed form comes with it's own linker core. Normally, that's irrelevant. Ranma has his own core to use, or did until the incident that damaged the one his guy form uses. Thus he's forced to rely on the core his girl form provides.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:48 pm

Muramasa wrote:But that's the problem. As I see it, Ranma can only cast magic as a girl "just because." Again, I'm not saying don't write a Ranma-chan story. But, in my opinion you should find a different reason for Ranma to remain a girl. Your current plot device is too generic, relies on a deus ex machina and is basically a hand wave explanation.

*Sighs* It wouldn't be, "just because." For one, it takes into account that people with linker cores/who become mages are rare on Earth, thus Ranma isn't being made special by starting out with one/being one. Two, it offers some credence for why he would have never been able to realize that he had personal access to magic, and thus make use of it, before the start of Ranma 1/2 (which is in respect to the canon of the universe that Ranma comes from). Three, it adds some dimension to the idea that Ranma can use magic, because he'll care about having to be a girl to use it, rather than there not being any problem at all because he can use magic as a guy (and it wouldn't be Ranma 1/2 if he doesn't end up having to be a girl for something when he'd rather not be).

As for the deus ex machina, I don't see it. If you're referring to Jusenkyo, that's a well-established source of magic that changes someone into something else. If you deny it its function, you destroy Ranma 1/2. Even if I were to use a spring that just happens to endow those who fall into it with a linker core, instead of playing with the chance of a new body having one, it still wouldn't be a deus ex machina because it's wholly possible that Jusenkyo could have that kind of spring.

And we already have an explanation as to why Ranma-chan has red hair (and it has nothing to do with magic). In order for the fantastic explanation to be relevant (magical ancestry etc.), the mundane explanation (she gets it from Nodoka) would have to be debunked. Otherwise it's just speculation and irrelevant.

Wait, we know why Ranma has red hair as a girl? Even though Japanese people don't have naturally-occurring redheads, and neither her father or mother have red hair, much less blue eyes? (Heck, considering Ranma's height as a girl, at her age, she seems especially short when compared to her parents, as opposed to his height as a guy.) Aside from Akane, whose hair can still arguably be considered black, every other Japanese character has black or brown hair, and usually does not have blue, green, et cetera-colored eyes.

I know that genetics plays a role in who has a linker core/can become a mage, or else the artificial mage project would have never happened. Considering how Jusenkyo creates bodies with magic, I don't think it's a stretch to say that there's a possibility for the body to end up being magically-inclined, and thus why someone like Ranma would end up with red hair. Especially since the nyanniichuan spring's change focuses on age and gender, not race or pigmentation. And if the magic of Jusenkyo inhabits the body like a unison device might, which are known for changing someone's pigmentation while being used, there's that, too.

Again, if Ranma can't use magic as a guy than flying is too dangerous. It only takes one inconvenient change and 'BOOM!' Ranma falls to his death due to stupidity. Also if Ranma knows the ki equivalent of the moko takabisha, why would he need a magic version? He already learned the technique. It's redundant. Beyond that, there's not much else I can argue about ki vs. magic until the theoretical limits of both powers are explored. For instance I don't see why ki is unable to do what magic can "just because". The limits to both powers is just too vague right now. Until then, I can't say anything else about it. All I know is ki is vastly different from mid-childa style magic. But that's just the 'what' , I don't know the 'how' or the 'why?' .

Well, flight wouldn't be a problem if he ends up being able to switch between forms at will. Besides, Saffron dropped him (along with Mousse, Ryoga and Genma) from a mountain and he (along with the others) came out hurting but otherwise alright, so death from a fall is unlikely unless he falls onto something particularly deadly.

Also, using a moko takabisha-like technique using mana would not be redundant, unless you think that the supply of ki and mana are infinite. For instance, if the situation called for him to save up either his ki or his mana, then he'd be able to use one primarily over the other, which would be really handy. Plus, the mana or ki version may be more effective depending on the target, so there's another good reason to have both of them to choose from.

Aside from all of that, the story I want to write was inspired by the fact that using ki would be useful in dealing with the AMF, so the use and importance of his ki is what I'll actually be focusing on the most. Though that and him learning some magic come second to character interaction.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Wyrd » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:41 pm

Even though Japanese people don't have naturally-occurring redheads, and neither her father or mother have red hair, much less blue eyes?


As I pointed out on a different thread, I recently read that one of the highest concentrations of red hair outside Ireland can be found in the natives of one of Japan's islands(I forget which one). Nodoka's hair is often depicted as auburn, which can be a result of codominant genes in a person possessing red and brown hair genes. I don't recall ever seeing Genma's hair except in flashback, where it was obviously exaggerated, but he could have had black and red hair genes, with the black overriding the red. Blue eyes are far less common than red hair, even amongst that group, though it is possible that both Nodoka and Genma possessed recessive blue eye genes.

One interpretation of the change to Ranma is that instead of just getting his father's X chromosome instead of the Y, he gets all of his father's other chromosomes. Genetically, his two forms would be half siblings, as they only have their maternal dna in common. If Genma had a linker core that he never learned to access or only accessed in minor ways, and Ranma did not have one, then this reversal of genes could explain why his female side has an active core and his male side does not, or why his female side's core is stronger.

Another possibility is that the structural differences in his brain between when he is male and female makes the use of magic slightly easier while female. Not enormously easier, but enough of a difference that he trains up that advantage to counter the loss in strength and reach that he suffers while female.
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:11 pm

As far as I know, it would be impossible for a native Japanese person to be a true redhead unless they had some foreign ancestry. In the rare occurrence that someone has enough pheomelanin for it to show, there would be far too much darker pigmentation to achieve much beyond red highlights.

Personally, I'd rather not go in that direction, because the odds of a Japanese person being a true redhead with blue eyes are just too tenuous in light of other available options.

(I think the island you may be referring to is Hirado, though I couldn't find anything substantial regarding red hair in my search.)
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Re: Ranma versus mana versus ki/Ranma 1/2 versus MSL Nanoha

Postby Wyrd » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:18 pm

I think the article was on the notion that the red hair gene was disappearing. This idea was apparently created by a journalist, not a scientist, and the article went into detail on the mutation that leads to red hair, a mutation which can occur in any (I think it was black) hair gene. Once an individual has two of those genes, they have red hair, regardless of the hair color of their parents(along with a number of other effects that the gene has on the body mostly dealing with the way the body makes pigments). That island in Japan has 4% red hair, which compares to a mere 5% for Europe. It is not common, but part of the reason that you don't see it much in Japan is their focus on conformity. A teenager can get away with it because it is just assumed that they died their hair red, but an adult with red hair will receive problems ranging from people assuming that they must have foreign ancestry to that they are vain or childish to continue to die their hair, even if it is a natural hair color. this leads to a large number of red headed Japanese individuals dying their hair black.
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