Why is everyone so DOWN on Nodoka???

[BlueDragon]

Okay, While this new FukuFics is just getting restarted; I remember several messages on the old one where people were voicing there displeasure with Nodoka. And while I think that many of the characters as described in cannon, Manga or Anime, would end up put away for extended times for child abuse; among many other possible crimes. This series is more just for entertainment value above all. And people tend to laugh when some poor slob they know has awful things happen to him, it’s natural…
But I wanted to find out just why it seems the common consensus around here that Nodoka is some sort of a ‘WACK JOB’.
I feel it is the general place of the particular Fanfiction’s Author to define more of the individuals’ personal motivations. And I don’t mind in stories where her or Genma are Vilified; for some stories it just is needed. But why the overflowing that Nodoka is one of the evil ones bothers me…
Is it not possible that she is the product of her families’ upbringing as well as the treatment she received from her husband? Don’t forget as modern as Japan is the predominate feeling are still that the husbands word is Law and the wife is responsible to abide by any of his decisions and make the best of it. Also her son was taken from her at a very young age, and we all can believe Genma would have done that to get away from her to train his son, maybe Nodoka was never even consulted before hand. And that contract was the last contact she had with them…
After several years she may have resigned herself to praying her son was raised to be able to fulfill that agreement, and has unfortunately fixated on its conditions…
Oh well enough ranting for now, just wanted to get a few ideas out and people discussing the possibilities.

[pspinler]

Disclaimer: I don't feel that Nodoka is especially evil or anything. However, I do feel she's at least as much a nut job as any other Ranma character, and moreso than some.

Is it not possible that she is the product of her families’ upbringing as well as the treatment she received from her husband?

Doesn't matter. We don't excuse the actions of responible adults just because they had a particular childhood or upbringing, with the exception of people shown to be mentally ill. That's why we use the term "responsible adult", that's what it means.

Don’t forget as modern as Japan is the predominate feeling are still that the husbands word is Law and the wife is responsible to abide by any of his decisions and make the best of it.

As always, the situation is more complicated than that. This may be the "public" face which a family and wife presents, but behind the scenes, many of the family decisions are considered to be the wife's domain, in particular regarding day to day finances and decisions regarding the children's upbringing, and possibly other things as well. (my source: my wife, who lived in Japan for several years and got to know many women in her work there).
So actually, Nodoka agreeing to allow Genma to take Ranma away as a child is unusual.
In another sense, Genma did have a point, though. Japanese mothers are known for coddling their children, especially sons, up to and including imposing essentially no disciple on a child at all (depending on the school system to do this, instead). There's books on Japanese culture around which include info about the mother/son relationship, and how, for instance, a wife is expected to coddle a husband almost as a surrogate mother, at least to an extent.
Go do some cultural research on Japan. There's several good books on Japanese society and culture written for gaijin. Fascinating reading, really.
-- Pat

[crystlshake]

I think a lot of it comes from viewing the sepeku pact as more or less Genmas permision slip to take her child away from her for 10+ years. That may not have been the intention when the pact was made, but many perceive that as her go ahead to her husband. There is also the underlying sense of betrayal that the reader/watcher may feel when she is first introduced and they think (like ranma probably was) that this would be his respite, and he would be able to meet a loving caring person (the personification of the mother concept) after so much suffering that could if only for a little while 'kiss and make it all better'. Unfortuantely finding out that someone that you had such high expectations of (character and reader alike) is perhaps of the same or worse character as the questionable parenting of genma twists the knife pretty deep.
This coupled with the disbelief about the contract, the (for the lack of dispute) allowed 10 year training mission, and her apparent willingness to uphold the contract and thus kill a child she had little hand in raising (based on amgigous expectations) leaves a foul taste in the mouths of many(even if a comedy). On the brite side it doesnt take much from a fanfiction point of view to come up with justification for some of this. It is far easier to clear Nodoka's name of guilt than that of her husband. Any of those three points with minimal work can become moot. Say the trip wasnt supposed to be nearly as long, say till she got out of the hospital for something and the contract was a spook tactic to keep genma behaving himself. If this or something similar is the case it is easy to draw a conclusion that the reason she holds to the contract and what it stands for so tightly is that it is about the only connection she has with her son and husband. Ten years of abscence and worry can make people a bit fanatical. Her desire for grandchildren however is kind of a ironic sence of humor since it seems she wants to pamper children when she played a minor role in raising her own. In one part its replacement which could wound ranma emotionally, on the other its making up for something that was denied her(perhaps not of her choice).
One of the charms of the series is that every character can be sypathized with in some way (either with what is said or what is not) and thus can be written in a good light either thrue justification, a tweek to cannon, or a little creative writing.

[BlueDragon]

Disclaimer: I don't feel that Nodoka is especially evil or anything. However, I do feel she's at least as much a nut job as any other Ranma character, and moreso than some.

So on that particular point I would agree also. As I've said here and some other places the decisions/opinions are speculative and up to the reader. I don’t mind when she is written as a Nutjob, or negligent or even evil for that matter. I was just trying to point out other possibilities.

So actually, Nodoka agreeing to allow Genma to take Ranma away as a child is unusual.

Like I said though you are not taking into account that Genma may have even taken Ranma from her in the middle of the night. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time he had. And what would make his wife any different then all the other people he stiffed for one thing or another.
I only say this as a possibility for why she may be a bit of a fruit loop here, Think about it she wakes up some morning to fix her son breakfast and her husband and son are both gone. All she has is this stupid contract her husband left, saying that Ranma will be trained to be a Man among Men… I think in a situation like that, if she tried to believe her husband was good, and was trying to raise her son. She just may have that slight ‘Manliness’ fixation of hers.
It’s a possibility.

[Greybara]

Okay, While this new FukuFics is just getting restarted; I remember several messages on the old one where people were voicing there displeasure with Nodoka. And while I think that many of the characters as described in cannon, Manga or Anime, would end up put away for extended times for child abuse; among many other possible crimes. This series is more just for entertainment value above all. And people tend to laugh when some poor slob they know has awful things happen to him, it’s natural…
But I wanted to find out just why it seems the common consensus around here that Nodoka is some sort of a ‘WACK JOB’.
I feel it is the general place of the particular Fanfiction’s Author to define more of the individuals’ personal motivations. And I don’t mind in stories where her or Genma are Vilified; for some stories it just is needed. But why the overflowing that Nodoka is one of the evil ones bothers me…
Is it not possible that she is the product of her families’ upbringing as well as the treatment she received from her husband? Don’t forget as modern as Japan is the predominate feeling are still that the husbands word is Law and the wife is responsible to abide by any of his decisions and make the best of it. Also her son was taken from her at a very young age, and we all can believe Genma would have done that to get away from her to train his son, maybe Nodoka was never even consulted before hand. And that contract was the last contact she had with them…
After several years she may have resigned herself to praying her son was raised to be able to fulfill that agreement, and has unfortunately fixated on its conditions…
Oh well enough ranting for now, just wanted to get a few ideas out and people discussing the possibilities.

the worst genma has done is to teach ranma the nekoken, throwing him into pits of cats that administer many many shallow painful cuts
nodoka would force her son to kill himself at the drop of a hat if he didnt turn out to be man enough! shes going to MURDER her son if he dosent turn out exactly as she pleases! this shows she has absalutly no true love for his son, hes entirely and uterly an object, nodoka is mentaly no more than a physcotic 4 year old who cuts off the head of her doll because it wasnt the exact 'present' she wanted,
anyone who has a child and holds it up to any standard is fricken insane, your child could be mentaly retarded. the reason you have a child is because you love life and you feel that the child should live life to, and you have the loving and the strength to raise that child and allow it to love life in its own way,
Its a way of giving the gift of life and love to a person who hasnt experianced it, and having a child and expecting things from it is wrong, after all, did the said child ask to be born? solicet you from darkness to be molded?
nodoka shouldnt have a right to raise children,
I hold a strong belief that genma is hardly racist at all and his drilling those sexist values into ranma is the only way to save their necks,

[Sunshine Temple]

Couple things. Note how I quoted only parts of your post. The parts I felt relevant. That way I'm not simply regugitating what was previously posted.

anyone who has a child and holds it up to any standard is fricken insane, your child could be mentaly retarded. the reason you have a child is because you love life and you feel that the child should live life to, and you have the loving and the strength to raise that child and allow it to love life in its own way,

No standards? Man Gaijin was so right about you.

I hold a strong belief that genma is hardly racist at all and his drilling those sexist values into ranma is the only way to save their necks,

No one mentioned Genma being racist?
Look, calm down. I don't care if you have an axe to grind about this.
But you're starting to be a real knob.

[BlueDragon]

Oh please Greybara can you be for real…
I think I’ve said several times here and elsewhere that in all honesty none of the Ranma cast is without some very serious faults… And that includes Ranma as well as Kasumi and others. I never said Nodoka is perfect either. I am only trying to point out that she may not be as bad as people like you insist she is. And you really want to convince me she is worse the Genma, come on… If you look at the things Genma did to his son, and yes the list is much longer then just training him in the Neko-ken. I seem to remember Ranma being tied to a moving train among many other things. Genma is by no ones estimation an angel. And most would say he is much worse. That’s why Genma bashing is so popular…
The whole reason I started this topic was to point out that attitudes like yours, really get annoying. I have read several fics and enjoyed them as well where Nodoka is evil person you want to believe her to be but come on… do you honestly believe your concept of Nodoka is the only right one here. The way your talking about this subject makes me think you are a follower of the ‘Only True Fiancée’ and while I think Ranma & Akane would end up together, I like reading lots of fics where he ends up with totally different girls.
That same rule applies to my feelings about Nodoka. She could be for one, the personification of evil, but if that is what you believe, be prepared that maybe the next guy doesn’t think the same as YOU. For me in the one true Ranma½ fanfiction I’ve been writing, I write her as such. She has more then her fair share of problems but Evil, or a just plain bad Mother isn’t one of them.

[Greybara]

Couple things. Note how I quoted only parts of your post. The parts I felt relevant. That way I'm not simply regugitating what was previously posted.

anyone who has a child and holds it up to any standard is fricken insane, your child could be mentaly retarded. the reason you have a child is because you love life and you feel that the child should live life to, and you have the loving and the strength to raise that child and allow it to love life in its own way,

No standards? Man Gaijin was so right about you.

I hold a strong belief that genma is hardly racist at all and his drilling those sexist values into ranma is the only way to save their necks,

No one mentioned Genma being racist?
Look, calm down. I don't care if you have an axe to grind about this.
But you're starting to be a real knob.

yeah cause man gaijin knows everything about me, :roll:
No standards, and ive already stated ample reason why, although i doubt you payed much attantion to it,

[mondu_the_fat]

nodoka is mentaly no more than a physcotic 4 year old who cuts off the head of her doll because it wasnt the exact 'present' she wanted,

False. In a society where family honor is paramount, a family will cut off a member who does not conform. Most of family dramas see on TV involve some member doing something the family disapproves, and is considered "dead". Japan has a history of recognizing sepukku as honorable, so it shouldn't be surprising that "considered dead" is "really dead".

anyone who has a child and holds it up to any standard is fricken insane, your child could be mentaly retarded.

Mental retardation cannot be helped. This is not the same as failing to live up to expectations. The former is a situation that has no solution. The latter could have been avoided by free will.

the reason you have a child is because you love life and you feel that the child should live life to, and you have the loving and the strength to raise that child and allow it to love life in its own way,

False. Children propagate the species and the family name. Again, this is especially true in places where family is paramount.

Its a way of giving the gift of life and love to a person who hasnt experianced it, and having a child and expecting things from it is wrong, after all, did the said child ask to be born? solicet you from darkness to be molded?

No. Doesn't matter. Familial duty is always like that.

nodoka shouldnt have a right to raise children,

Nothing you have said says otherwise.

I hold a strong belief that genma is hardly racist at all and his drilling those sexist values into ranma is the only way to save their necks,

Where does racism come into question here?
On topic:
Cystlshake makes an excellent argument in that Nadoka was seen as Ranma's respite, but turned out to be a whack job herself. I don't think she's worse than Genma because her actions can be said to be because of love -- she doesn't want Ranma to be a failure (of course, its her standard being used, but that doesn't decrease the fact that she wants the best for Ranma).
The readers felt more pain with the revelation of the sepukku contract far more than the catfist training. I certainly did, especially when it seemed that Nodoka will _really_ pull the thing through (I had only read the last parts of the manga recently, and in most fanfiction it seemed Nodoka would only use the contract as an empty threat). Hence, Nodoka gets a more severe backlash.

[Sunshine Temple]

yeah cause man gaijin knows everything about me,
No standards, and ive already stated ample reason why, although i doubt you payed much attantion to it,

What the hell is wrong with you?
The first line on my post told you not to quote the whole message.
Especially when your reply was shorter than the mesage you quoted.
Do you really think it's wise to taunt and challenge the admin?
Brilliant move. Don't tempt me.

[Greybara]

dont bother im leaving, i make it my buisness not to hang around worthless people who brandish their power whenever someone has a different opinion and speaks it,
Im hopping that none of you ever raise children, if you would think someone who would murder their child for not being a man among men is fit to raise a child. I doubt that opinion would stay if you found yourself in a similar situation.

[Dark Magic]

man calm down it's only a show or book which ever way you enjoy Ranma. Strictly for your own enjoyment.

[Sunshine Temple]

dont bother im leaving, i make it my buisness not to hang around worthless people who brandish their power whenever someone has a different opinion and speaks it,

I am amused. I was not talking about the substance of your argument. Just the means and way you were presenting it.

Im hopping that none of you ever raise children, if you would think someone who would murder their child for not being a man among men is fit to raise a child. I doubt that opinion would stay if you found yourself in a similar situation.

Ahh... and here you go. Leaving in a nice hissy fit where you present us as the villians and you leaving with a last parting shot.
Interesting how you automacitally assume my stance in this argument.
At least you've proved your inability to argue without reducing yourself to histerics and insults.

[Drawde]

If you look at the things Genma did to his son, and yes the list is much longer then just training him in the Neko-ken. I seem to remember Ranma being tied to a moving train among many other things.

I'm pretty sure the train thing's fanon. The only specific things I can remember being mentioned about how Genma trained Ranma are the neko-ken and Jusenkyo. For all we know, those might have been his only major TRAINING mistakes.
As for Nodoka, although Genma's the one who proposed the contract, she did agree to it. And there's also her willingness to follow through with it, without discussing it, or finding out facts (we never got a definition of "man amongst men", we didn't see Genma and Nodoka discussing it when the contract was made, and she didn't even try to find out why the man she THOUGHT was Ranma was wearing a girl's school uniform). We're also not shown much about her, as opposed to Genma. We know Genma's often stupid, but we hardly ever saw Nodoka before the manga ended.

[antimatterenergy]

My reason for thinking bad on Nodoka is generally because she was prepared to go through with it and even had Ranma dress up for seppuka when she had yet to get to know him at all. Also what is her definition of manly? Is it the way Genma acts i.e. Lying, cheating, running up debts, running from people, bullying others, being a coward generally, etc... How does she expect Ranma to be with Genma as his role model? I would like her a lot more as a person if I knew what standards Ranma had to live up to because as it stands she can decide that he has to commit seppuka for any reason she wants and can hold the pledge over Ranma's head to make him do anything she wants.