Amaguriken

[Pale Wolf]

It's a martial arts manga convention. Just because it doesn't happen in real life doesn't mean we can't deduce anything about what it's intended to signify.
In addition to that, you said it yourself--it's "the practice of calling out attacks". Which also gives the implication that the KTA is one, by precedent.

Ranma calls it out as an attack, but that doesn't mean it was the purpose of the training.

Perhaps because--if what Ranma does to Ryouga's blast of rock shrapnel is any indication--they can pluck swarms of arrows out of the air without discernable effort?

And that's why you shoot the legs, as I said. You see, if they are only enhancing arm speed, they won't be able to bend over and catch a thing.
If they are able to catch arrows aimed at their lower legs, clearly the enhancement extends beyond their arms, and the technique is in fact full-body.

(And incidentally, could you provide a link to the page where it says that the emperors were afraid of it? I'm afraid I can't remember where in the storyline that happens.)

Eh, I just remember that as being part of Cologne's sales pitch.

Unless they're sending projectiles your way. Or if they're trying to kick you.

Then they shoot to areas where merely enhanced arm speed can't get. Middle of the upper back, lower legs...

Or if you're throwing projectiles at them. Imagine a hidden weapons master like Mousse throwing near-endless supplies of throwing knives from his weapon-space with Amaguriken speed. Ancient day machine gun.

Potentially.

Kicks can block, technically, but much worse than hands.

Only if you train to use hands to block and then suddenly try to use your leg. I assure you, blocking with your legs works very well, if you actually bother to learn how to.

it wouldn't help you with performing ranged attacks like an arm KTA would.

Since no one does that anyway, it's not much of a loss.

you could definitely run much faster. I'd hardly say that's a slam dunk, though.

It's the whole point. Moving faster equals more mobility, equals control over the battlefield.

[claymade]

Ranma calls it out as an attack, but that doesn't mean it was the purpose of the training.

But if he calls it out as a specific, discrete attack, don't you think that implies he sees it as one? Doesn't the fact that he calls attention to it in this way suggest to the reader that it's something more than just normal everyday punches?

And that's why you shoot the legs, as I said. You see, if they are only enhancing arm speed, they won't be able to bend over and catch a thing.
If they are able to catch arrows aimed at their lower legs, clearly the enhancement extends beyond their arms, and the technique is in fact full-body.

Here's an archery page describing the problem of a (normal, non-ki-enhanced) Whitetail deer reacting to an oncomming arrow.
http://www.timberline-archery.com/arrow_speed.asp
You seem to be asserting that a Ranmaverse martial artist would need KTA-level speeds in order to crouch during the time it takes a soldier to fire an arrow at her. Why?
Ranma was already super-fast even before the KTA--that technique simply let him progress to mind-bogglingly fast.
(Not to mention you could probably just give the KTAers a sword and have them swat the arrows with that, without even bothering to crouch.)

Eh, I just remember that as being part of Cologne's sales pitch.

Well, I've read through my manga copy of her pitch, and I don't see it anywhere. Perhaps you're remembering something from the anime? Either way, it's lack would seem to render the whole discussion of how it would stack up against the Emperors rather moot. If we can't find it, we may want to just drop that line of debate as irrelevant to the original question.

Then they shoot to areas where merely enhanced arm speed can't get. Middle of the upper back, lower legs...

See above for the latter, don't stand with your back exposed to the enemy army for the former.

Only if you train to use hands to block and then suddenly try to use your leg. I assure you, blocking with your legs works very well, if you actually bother to learn how to.

I agree that a kick could effectively be used to block in certain very specific situations, but to completely take over defense with your legs? That seems not only a gross waste of energy, but fundamentally impractical. Arm are simply lighter, more agile, better able to shift direction, twist and turn, better able to capture or redirect, far more able to work in close quarters, and with a much less limited range of movement, and less susceptible to capture and off-balancing. It seems to me that no matter how much effort you put into kick-blocking, your hands could always be far better if the same ammount of effort was put into training them.

Since no one does that anyway, it's not much of a loss.

http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book37/RM37-012.gif
(Granted, we don't know for a fact that he's even using Amaguriken speed here, but it at least shows that the concept of the attack is not a foreign one to him.)

It's the whole point. Moving faster equals more mobility, equals control over the battlefield.

It's certainly a huge advantage. Having a regiment of KTA knife throwers would be a big advantage too. The point is these are all extremely potent, deadly, useful techniques.
In any case, if a leg Amaguriken is even possible in the Ranmaverse--and again, we have no guarantee that it even is, or that it works to the same degree--it still wouldn't have helped Ranma any in the jam he was in, which would explain why Cologne taught him the arm version.
Here, look at it this way: if the Amaguriken can only be done with the arms--well and good. On the other hand, if the Amaguriken can be done with any body part, we could simply say that each set of muscles need to be trained in the technique individually, and that Ranma just hasn't yet trained his legs to do the KTA. Either way, it makes (relative) sense out of the Bakusai Tenketsu fight, the upholding of which is really the main thing I was keen to do.

[Pale Wolf]

But if he calls it out as a specific, discrete attack, don't you think that implies he sees it as one?

Of course he uses it as one, that doesn't mean anyone else does.

Doesn't the fact that he calls attention to it in this way suggest to the reader that it's something more than just normal everyday punches?

Since I've seen him call it out when he used a drop kick on someone, I'm gonna say... no.

You seem to be asserting that a Ranmaverse martial artist would need KTA-level speeds in order to crouch during the time it takes a soldier to fire an arrow at her. Why?
Ranma was already super-fast even before the KTA--that technique simply let him progress to mind-bogglingly fast.
(Not to mention you could probably just give the KTAers a sword and have them swat the arrows with that, without even bothering to crouch.)

Hm, points.

Well, I've read through my manga copy of her pitch, and I don't see it anywhere. Perhaps you're remembering something from the anime?

Hm, guess we can chalk another one up to fanon. Though I will note - and on the 'technique' point as well - that that particular site has had concerns raised about its translations on certain points. So it's entirely possible that the pitch, and the 'not technique', came from the Viz copy. Would have to ask someone with the original.

I agree that a kick could effectively be used to block in certain very specific situations, but to completely take over defense with your legs? That seems not only a gross waste of energy, but fundamentally impractical. Arm are simply lighter, more agile, better able to shift direction,

Though legs are larger - don't need to actually move them as much - and a lot tougher - so blocking doesn't hurt you (in fact, it's hurt the other guy way more often than I'd like). And the speed dropoff isn't that great.

far more able to work in close quarters,

Not really. Your knee is a lot easier to cram into extremely narrower areas while still being mobile enough to be effective. The arms... if you get less than a foot away, their mobility gets greatly curtailed. Still useable, but its clumsier to try.

and with a much less limited range of movement,

Not that limited. I've been able to use my knees to block shots aimed at my head. They aren't as good for side-on defence, though, that much is correct.

and less susceptible to capture and off-balancing.

Hey, if the guy wants to devote all his limbs to grabbing your knee and trying to struggle and get you off-balance, exposing himself all the while to whatever your hands care to do, he's free.

(Granted, we don't know for a fact that he's even using Amaguriken speed here, but it at least shows that the concept of the attack is not a foreign one to him.)

Well of course he throws things, it's one of his better skills. Regardless, it looks more like that particular demonstration was an example of just scooping up a bunch and throwing all in one go.

Here, look at it this way: if the Amaguriken can only be done with the arms--well and good. On the other hand, if the Amaguriken can be done with any body part, we could simply say that each set of muscles need to be trained in the technique individually, and that Ranma just hasn't yet trained his legs to do the KTA.

All right then. I'll agree it's not impossible that it be arms-only. Now, that Ranma hasn't bothered to train the leg version is... not impossible either, really. Although, whichever is in fact correct, I still have to wonder why he chose fourth best instead of third... But then, Takahashi is Takahashi.

[Sheylenna]

Hm, guess we can chalk another one up to fanon. Though I will note - and on the 'technique' point as well - that that particular site has had concerns raised about its translations on certain points. So it's entirely possible that the pitch, and the 'not technique', came from the Viz copy. Would have to ask someone with the original.

Actually we can safely say that the reference site that we are all using uses (at least for earlier stories) the VIZ copy
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book05/RM05-175.jpg
Edit: I can't seem to load the page from the URL link HELP Please (PM me if you decide to)
This is the cover for the Arc that we are discussing.
BTW I noticed that Shampoo calls it a Technique long before Cologne ever even names it herself. Cologne shows it to Ranma and Shampoo calls it "The Legendary Technique" ....

[claymade]

Hm, guess we can chalk another one up to fanon. Though I will note - and on the 'technique' point as well - that that particular site has had concerns raised about its translations on certain points. So it's entirely possible that the pitch, and the 'not technique', came from the Viz copy. Would have to ask someone with the original.

I actually do own the Viz manga through vol 6. Can't seem to find it in either version. Cologne/Shampoo/Ranma's comments about the KTA being a "technique" are in the Viz too.

<kick stuff>

Wow, pretty impressive. Okay, I'll grant that both can be used effectively for defense.

All right then. I'll agree it's not impossible that it be arms-only. Now, that Ranma hasn't bothered to train the leg version is... not impossible either, really. Although, whichever is in fact correct, I still have to wonder why he chose fourth best instead of third... But then, Takahashi is Takahashi.

Just to clarify, what would be third best? I'm afraid I'm still not seeing an obvious better route that would have worked (aside from the knife thing, of course, if he'd been willing to kill him).

[Pale Wolf]

I actually do own the Viz manga through vol 6. Can't seem to find it in either version. Cologne/Shampoo/Ranma's comments about the KTA being a "technique" are in the Viz too.

Hm, anime or fanon then.
Third-best is the one you suggested, as second-best - grab Ryouga and pound away for a short while, then duck out. Second-best is the kicks one, but as you've indicated, may well be impossible. Best overall is the knife, of course.

[claymade]

Third-best is the one you suggested, as second-best - grab Ryouga and pound away for a short while, then duck out. Second-best is the kicks one, but as you've indicated, may well be impossible. Best overall is the knife, of course.

Ah, gotcha.
Yeah, my personal theory on the matter was just that he wanted to keep a hand free to have a better chance of trapping the BT if Ryouga tried to use it on him again. Remember, he thought it would be a one-hit kill. In that light, I can see why he might be psyched out enough to err on the defensive side--even if that might ultimately have been a mistake.
In fact, I once read an analysis of the BT fight where someone (I forget who) essentially suggested that the way Ryouga used the BT was likely a deliberate mindgame suggested by Cologne. The reasoning was that it doesn't make any sense for Cologne to hide the BT's limitation from Ryouga--she wanted him to win, so why let him waste a hit in thinking a tap could kill Ranma? The theory was that she had suggested Ryouga attack Ranma with one-fingered blows, to produce exactly the effect you see--Ranma forced on the ultra-defensive, believeing he can't let even a single hit get by.

[ShiroK]

In the anime KTA is described as "For over 3000 years even the last emperor feared it.....The amazons greatest secret, The chestnuts roasting on an open fire technique" This trend is a runing gag as the Splitting Cat Hairs and Hiryu Shoten Ha will also have been feared by emperors.
[/quote]

[nodregah]

Just because nobody caught it before, here's this:

rifle bullet is an example of a much smaller sonic boom

Sorry, but no rifles to date have ever fired a shot at or near the speed of sound. It has been documented on aircraft out running bullets when they go super sonic. This is one reason guns are not trusted on bomber defense anymore.

[ShiroK]

Bullets do travel considerably faster than the speed of sound....
speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m / s

"With modern propulsion techniques, the projectile's initial velocity may be as high as 4000 feet (1200 meters) per second for some rifles and 5000 feet (1500 meters) per second for some large guns." is a quote from the entry; Ballistics. The World Book Encyclopedia. New York: World Book, 1998.
Since i last checked 1500 m/s is greater than 340.29 m/s they are indead breaking the speed of sound. Also balistics are used in missle deffence look at most any millitary ship in service today. The are not used as much in long range plane interception due to "lead time" to hit things traveling parallel or away from the gun emplacement.

[lwf58]

All normal bullets break the sound barrier. In order to silence a pistol, one of the methods besides using a sound-baffle chamber is to reduce the gunpowder charge to slow the bullet's velocity below the speed of sound. I've been downrange of rifle fire, and the sonic shockwave caused by the bullets passing nearby gives you a moderately strong slap.
It isn't that hard to break the sound barrier. As a somewhat experienced whip handler, I can tell you that the cracking sound a whip makes is because the tip breaks the sound barrier and causes a small sonic boom.

Also balistics are used in missle deffence look at most any millitary ship in service today. The are not used as much in long range plane interception due to "lead time" to hit things traveling parallel or away from the gun emplacement.

Bullet-firing weapons are not used in long-range defense because the bullets' ballistic arcs limit their effective range to a few thousand yards/meters at best. (After that, their flight paths are too unpredictable to hit consistently.) Lead time isn't an issue on ships, because they use radar ranging to determine what the angle and lead time should be.

[FOG3]

All normal bullets break the sound barrier

Some of the pistol rounds and certain 22LR loadings do drop below 1100 ft/s, which is considered to be Mach 1 for all intents and purposes for normal shooting, so that's not entirely accurate. In terms of rifles, which is what you're talking about it is however basically true. Of course, that's just nitpicking on an unqualified generalization.
That said anyone willing to grant any martial artist type that unlike Alita isn't shown to deal with the effects of the sound barrier the ability to go supersonic is being beyond generous. Especially when most have no followthrough to back up even travelling at a tenth of a Mach.

[lwf58]

Yes, there are subsonic .22LR rounds. They are made to be that way. Most are supersonic. http://www.answers.com/topic/22-long-rifle
One of the things about this topic that has to be taken into account is that it's a comic book story. The studies done on Ranma's punches at amaguriken speed do indeed indicate that he should be breaking the sound barrier, but the comic never indicates that, or deals with the consequences of having an attack that would sound like a machinegun being fired if it were real.
In the end, it's just meant to entertain, not match RL physics. So while the amaguriken isn't very logical, it has to be accepted that it just is what it is.

[FOG3]

What indicates that the depiction _requires_ exceeding 1100 ft/s?
That Breaking Point arc incident? You have to not only assume Akane literally counted punches, that she never actually saw, but fudge the numbers with longer stroke then indicated and a higher number. Her statement in context is like your average persons saying "I have tons of *insert whatever here.*" Usually they don't actually have close to an English, US, Metric or any other standard ton of whatever it is.
The number could just as easily be 60, 75, 200, 136, or whatever because there isn't a count given, just an expression that really just means a lot. An ethereal hint of a hint of a maybe isn't sufficient evidence to prove anything beyond the fact the person doesn't have better evidence on hand.