Sailor powers and devices

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Sailor powers and devices

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:47 pm

There's been a part of the Sailor Moon universe that has been confusing me for a while. While senshi have special star seeds (called sailor crystals), and thus have an innate power, in the beginning, for several arcs, the senshi need devices, like pens and brooches, to draw that power out. However, whether they stop using them during the next-to-last arc or not, is hard for me to say with a reasonable amount of confidence: since the sailor crystals they are given by their guardians could also just be more instrumentation.

What do the rest of you think about this? I don't really know what to make of it. I mean, I figure it'd be natural to grow into, or sense/feel, the "magic" within them. I honestly don't see why there's a need for advanced technology to work that sort of thing. O.o
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Postby LiliandraNadiar » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:15 pm

Well, you could look at it in the manner of a short cut. It's easier to use this item here to get powered up to full fighting strength on little notice then to either:
a - spend X time reaching/gathering/what have you, or
b - take x time during 'down time' to train up to a level to not need it.

While I'm not totally sure about the anime side (still haven't seen Stars at all), from my partially fuzzy memories of the Viz translated mangas (haven't read them in about five years), they still used them right up to the Stars arc when they fully embrace their power an not longer see/use a seporation of Sailor X and their 'civilian' life.
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Postby TerraEpon » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:36 pm

I've seen a number of fanfics where it says the wands are a placebo, and others that say they are training. Others that say they are absolutely essential (and they never stopped using them in the anime, though considering the stock footage factor...).
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Postby Cheb » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:51 am

AFAIR, they stop using their henshin rods at the beginning of SuperS arc(#4) in the manga. It is stated the henshin rods are a sort of crutches used until a Senshi matures. Kind of the training wheels on a kid's bicycle. After that they still have to transform but they do it at will.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:35 pm

The thing about that, is it's one thing to get on a bike, and another to ride it. The same as turning the key in the ignition of a car and knowing how to drive it. I'd understand the use of technology to aid in the use of their powers, but, for the most part, that seems to come naturally to them. (Usagi seems to be the exception, when she first starts out, so... It'd be odd that she'd be the only one with a device that doesn't make her aware of her attacks and thus use them naturally.) I could even understand needing them the first time, as a way of finding their power for them. Beyond that, I'd figure that they'd be able to tap into their power themselves after that first time, so... I have a hard time seeing what their use is, aside from being a visual, tangible, girly device. (Whether it was intended for fashion/merchandise or not.)

I can't say that I ever heard of the henshin rods being referred to as a crutch until they mature. Is that from the anime, or the manga? And whereabouts might I find it?
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:45 pm

I think it included the "how to" on attacks for everyone except Usagi too. After all didn't they end up with more attack information after the upgrade but before past life memories were really giving them anything useful? The reason it didn't for Usagi is because there was no prior Sailor Moon to have gotten the memory of how to attack from.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:12 pm

I wouldn't know. I mean, they do seem to experience deja vu, so it's possible that they could unconsciously pick up how to do certain attacks, because it feels right to them. Beyond that, their next upgrade is after their memories come back, and it gives them new, stronger attacks. And they rarely ever fall back on their old attacks. It seems like the devices themselves provide, or construct (using whatever's already present) their attacks and how much power they possess. It doesn't make much sense, to me.

Perhaps a better way of expressing my confusion, refers to other senshi, ones not from the Silver Millennium/Sol system. Galaxia, for instance, didn't seem to need a training program to use her power, or what she was capable of. It makes more sense, to me, that an innate power, with the purpose of guarding something, wouldn't need an outside source/stimulus to make it work. It'd contradict the meaning of their existence, to have to rely on such a thing, since they wouldn't be able to be who they are without something removed from them and dependent on certain conditions (technological advancement).
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Postby FOG3 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:38 pm

On any such system you have

Power Source -> Process -> Desired Output

Usually the basic process simply requiring the ability to convert the energy, while the more advanced incorporates active control in regulating parameters that are otherwise fixed.

As far as anime goes it's made abundantly clear the transformation device is regulating everything. Hence in the beginning of S when Usagi's broach is damaged the entire thing automatically shuts down.

Toei wasn't that bad about such things. You have the basics which get replaced as I recall by the ones from the "future" which arguably could allow double draw. Further it is made clear output can be ramped by emotional state and control several times including the D-Point assault.

As for the need, there's nothing indicating they can really just bypass that middle management control. It's not exactly like you can directly regulate the actual beats of your heart either, while still being able to adjust the operatonal parameters in terms of heart rate.

Manga is more nebulous in that it's made clear they have some access no matter what, but prefer to go in transformed. Efficiency related concerns leading to better performance could justify the situation. Seems as how Galaxia basically appears out of nowhere, if we do not go with the interpretation the devices pretty much come with them it is perfectly viable to rationalize who ever produced her also provided her the means to transform for their own ends. Chaos canonically undeniably pretty much does exactly that to setup the scenario involving her anyway.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:30 pm

But the problem still remains with their existence. Certain star seeds have certain purposes. Sailor Crystals, for instance, have special powers for guarding celestial objects. And then that power itself has a guardian, which seems to act independently without any aid. It would be pointless to create special star seeds to do that if they couldn't access and use their powers themselves. Having to rely on the chance of some other source existing, that could allow them to access/give that power and/or control, is completely inefficient and undermines the very purpose of a senshi. (Since they wouldn't be able to be a senshi unless very specific conditions are met, despite having the required Sailor Crystal.) Otherwise just anyone who happens to have access to power could act as a senshi, even though it's made clear that only certain individuals have Sailor crystals.

I wish the need for the technology made sense to me, because it's so bothersome. It seems like Takeuchi contradicted herself, by way of the nature she bestowed upon the basis of everything, the star seeds themselves.

And now that I think about it, I don't think the outer senshi had any problems remembering their past, despite them all being reborn. What's up with that? O.o
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Postby FOG3 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:56 pm

They're conceived in the concept of hero unit and mooks, which if you haven't noticed is pretty much standard across the entertainment industry. It's not practical, but it is convention. The rest is CYA explanation to try to justify it, by a woman who was working on becoming a pharmacist and doing this in her spare time.

Stop nuking it.

Furthermore it's canon they can fake it. Both version of Galaxia's fake scouts attest to this capability existing, and seems as how Galaxia didn't come up with that tech herself Chaos had to be involved.

If you insist on rationalizing the technology you can always just declare Chaos and Serenity to be members of a more ancient group that set it up. Serenity running off with all the best equipment, and the Guardians of the Princess and Soldiers of the Outer Planets would be that equipment in addition to the Ginzuishou. Serenity created the Princess to serve as her final, for lack of a better term weapon system while the group/entity Chaos played catch up intending to claim the Ginzuishou to utilize it for their own weapon system/purposes.

Eventually the two royally screw over the universe in their pissing contest, because they refuse to ever recouncil. Neither being exactly what you could call good.
Last edited by FOG3 on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Makoto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:59 pm

As for the Outers - maybe the closer you were to ground zero (the Ginzuishou activating), the more fragmented/hidden your memories might be.

I always thought the henshin items might be more of a focus, myself, at least in the later stages of the SM timeline.
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Postby Zwzn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:21 pm

Mike Koos wrote: As for the Outers - maybe the closer you were to ground zero (the Ginzuishou activating), the more fragmented/hidden your memories might be.

Or the Outers don't remember as well as they think or let on.

Mike Koos wrote: always thought the henshin items might be more of a focus, myself, at least in the later stages of the SM timeline.

Personally I think all the sailor senshi know next to nothing about where their powers really come from, and even those who "know" are really just guesses based on a few facts that could mean several things.

I kind of like the idea of the Sailor senshi's fuku's being sort of like the Battle Dogi in Ranma 1/2, and the wands and broaches are like the belt buckle. They do seem to suddenly improve their combat skills when they transform.

Any way it is at the very least it is clear the wands and broaches are more then just pretty. What they are differs from source to source. In the manga they are shown to either limit, or store power for the sailor senshi, and in the anime they are shown or at least hinted to control the senshi's transformation.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:20 pm

FOG3 wrote:They're conceived in the concept of hero unit and mooks, which if you haven't noticed is pretty much standard across the entertainment industry. It's not practical, but it is convention. The rest is CYA explanation to try to justify it, by a woman who was working on becoming a pharmacist and doing this in her spare time.

That's pretty much a given. I wouldn't have brought up this topic if I wanted to contest the word of God. It's obvious there's a conflict, but can it be resolved? That's the whole point of this.

Stop nuking it.
If you insist on rationalizing the technology...

Isn't that a case of the pot calling the kettle black, given your own rationalizing of the technology in the Sailor Moon universe; not once, but twice? It helps neither you or this discussion.

Zwzn wrote:Personally I think all the sailor senshi know next to nothing about where their powers really come from, and even those who "know" are really just guesses based on a few facts that could mean several things.

It's a possibility, considering that there are plenty of examples of how they have a good idea about something but aren't exactly right.

I kind of like the idea of the Sailor senshi's fuku's being sort of like the Battle Dogi in Ranma 1/2, and the wands and broaches are like the belt buckle. They do seem to suddenly improve their combat skills when they transform.

That's not entirely consistent, but it's an interesting idea. That's probably the best idea that I've heard yet, considering this little suggestion made late in the series:

One of the Starlights wrote:Without transforming... What power.

(Although the Starlights hadn't seen that it had been Chibi-Chibi that had saved the city and warded Galaxia away. Usagi had managed a defense against Galaxia in her civilian form, but not strong enough to keep Galaxia away.)
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Postby FOG3 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:35 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Isn't that a case of the pot calling the kettle black, given your own rationalizing of the technology in the Sailor Moon universe; not once, but twice? It helps neither you or this discussion.
Having a problem understanding the lingo?

"Nuking it" is analogous to the common comment about having to kill the engineers to get something into production. The implication is you're obsessing so much on the problem you're rendering yourself unable to solve it and thus need to take a step back. The actual phrasing is a kind of a friendly intraservice rivalry between communities, the Nukes being one I was ultimately only a yes from the Admiral of Naval Reactors away from being. So I'd say I'm cleared to use it.

Now that we're done with exposition on something you should have been able to infer enough of from the usage, stow the attitude.
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Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:56 am

Crescent Pulsar wrote:
Zwzn wrote:Personally I think all the sailor senshi know next to nothing about where their powers really come from, and even those who "know" are really just guesses based on a few facts that could mean several things.


Crescent Pulsar wrote: a possibility, considering that there are plenty of examples of how they have a good idea about something but aren't exactly right.

It just seems like a lot of the things claimed can't be verified.

I kind of like the idea of the Sailor senshi's fuku's being sort of like the Battle Dogi in Ranma 1/2, and the wands and broaches are like the belt buckle. They do seem to suddenly improve their combat skills when they transform.


Crescent Pulsar wrote: not entirely consistent, but it's an interesting idea. That's probably the best idea that I've heard yet, considering this little suggestion made late in the series:

Well Princess Serenity, and Usagi seem to have no combat training, but Sailor moon seems to know how to fight at least better then Usagi and Princess Serenity.

One of the Starlights wrote:Without transforming... What power.


Crescent Pulsar wrote:Although the Starlights hadn't seen that it had been Chibi-Chibi that had saved the city and warded Galaxia away. Usagi had managed a defense against Galaxia in her civilian form, but not strong enough to keep Galaxia away.)

Is this with or without the Silver plot device that seemingly breaks all the rules like it's counterpart Chaos?

If it was with the Silver Crystal then it wasn't really Usagi doing it.
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