Ranma Dark Moon-Chapter Five

[deathgeonous]

DCG, the Chinese dress was infunaced by the Dark Princess part. I'll try though to do better with the effect of it. Now I'm Trying with Kasumi to make her want to help Ranma adjust, and if that means sometimes having Ranma doing things Ranma is not found of for the right reasons, instead of for no reason or bad reasons, it must be done. That's why they're making her get the dresses, but not making her wear them at this point and time, and maybe not ever, depending on what happens with her. It's a slow step by step prosses to get her used to being a her. Gezze, I'd never thought doing this would set off such a war of veiws. Oh, well maybe it's a good thing.

[lwf58]

Would you tell a rape victim, "In order to make you more adjusted to your new situation, you have to have sex with three men today. And you have to pick one of them." Well, would you?
And yes, this situation is every bit as serious. Ranma's just had his manhood ripped away from him and he's cursed to forever be something he hated becoming. And he's permanently estranged from his parents. Not good for one's mental health, that.
There are entire lines of women's clothing that don't involve the word "skirt" or "dress". There are pantsuits and trouser outfits for all occasions. The idea that Kasumi wouldn't be guiding him into those options just doesn't hold water.

[Fatuous One]

Hmm, looking it over, I’m in agreement with GH.
Mostly, I think my complaint is how Kasumi is doing a 180° on what she said she was going to do. She’s doing exactly what she said she shouldn’t do, that being, dressing up Ranma like a Barbie. Honestly, considering that Ranma just had her male side DIE a few days ago, I’m surprised she doesn’t blow up at them. While I might be able to see her buying the dresses to please the others, I really can’t see her actually wearing them for leisure and anything of the like.

[ranger5]

Uhmmnn. In canon Ranma DOES dress up quite a bit. Yes he has a reason to do so, but (s)he is, or comes across kinda vain.
Restrictive clothing CAN and will interfere with a fight, but Ranma is also somewhat used to it. See the Picolet Chardin stories, and copes pretty well. Yes someone else was dictating what he wore ... but she still wore it and moved pretty well.
Lets not forget that Akane fights in skirts all the time. While she definately isn't up to Ranma's level ... she'd kick the but of many "regular" martial artists, and does. I'd say many of the martial arts club folks she was fighting would be pretty darn good compared to a "normal" person. It's just when you compare the NWC to them they look like incompetents.
Kinda the same thing as if/when a local champion fights against a world class fighter. They look bad ... but compared to the crowd or their normal competetitors they're still really good.
There WILL be times she has to dress up, but I CAN see both sides or this arguement. Sometimes she can get away with the same type of "mannish" dress as Haruka... and perhaps a tux would work a lot of the time. I don't necessarily see a problem though if she works up to it and never really makes "feminine" clothing her first choice.
I'd probably go with a compromise. Perhaps leather type stuff that's short enough and flexible enought to fight in. Chinese dresses the same way as Shampoo. A lot of them can be good fighting togs.
"Regular" clothes would probably be just what she's picked out.
As to the Outers and Kasumi moving to fast. Well they did limit the dresses to 3 and said she'd wear them when appropriate (or didn't have anything else to wear)
Additionally, the "princess" is gonna have some effect on Ranma's choices especially as Ranma deals with/accesses more memories.
Don't see a complete change over... can see a definate change over time.
Course that's just my $0.03 opinion (just had to raise the price due to inflation you know)
I do like Pluto's plan ... and think Saturn would go for it. But I can also see this going one of two directs. Initial contact being hopefull, but wary as she's likely to be afraid the acceptance won't last. OR perhaps being to willing to change to be accepted. (shrugs) Plenty of logic to either choice.

[Khortez]

Well when Ranma wore dresses before, he could always return later to being a man. This time, he can't. Won't he want to keep some of what was taken away from him?
I could see him wearing them, but for very specific reasons, like spying or trying to stay undercover. However, now that his male side is gone, I would see Ranma trying to retain his manhood despite the current body. Thats just me though.

[GenocideHeart]

Uhmmnn. In canon Ranma DOES dress up quite a bit. Yes he has a reason to do so, but (s)he is, or comes across kinda vain.
Restrictive clothing CAN and will interfere with a fight, but Ranma is also somewhat used to it. See the Picolet Chardin stories, and copes pretty well. Yes someone else was dictating what he wore ... but she still wore it and moved pretty well.

My point is that she wouldn't WILLINGLY wear something restrictive. Period. You just agreed with me on that. Short of forcing her, she won't wear any such thing.

Lets not forget that Akane fights in skirts all the time. While she definately isn't up to Ranma's level ... she'd kick the but of many "regular" martial artists, and does. I'd say many of the martial arts club folks she was fighting would be pretty darn good compared to a "normal" person. It's just when you compare the NWC to them they look like incompetents.

Um.
Akane has zero finesse and little skill. She uses brute force and nothing else all the time. Look at how she 'deals' with the Hentai Horde. She plows in them without a shred of strategy, simply relying on pure power to crush them as fast as possible.
Using Akane as argument for fighting in skirts is like using Pantyhose Taro as argument for bulls flying... it makes no sense.

There WILL be times she has to dress up, but I CAN see both sides or this arguement. Sometimes she can get away with the same type of "mannish" dress as Haruka... and perhaps a tux would work a lot of the time. I don't necessarily see a problem though if she works up to it and never really makes "feminine" clothing her first choice.

I'll agree there will be times when she has to dress up, but I can't see Ranma accepting a dress at ANY other time. As for school... Y HELO THAR UKYO. She went to school with a male's dress. And note that her birth certificate (which is required to enlist) states she's a WOMAN, not a man. Unless she falsified it, which isn't as easy as some think, the school knew she was a woman.
Now you may argue that Juuban's HS is different, but the fact remains, if Ranma asks, either Ami or Setsuna can EASILY set her up with false birth certificates stating she's a he, and Ranma can easily bind her chest and look male. And phys ed is also easily bypassed by either obtaining an exemption or simply changing out of view.
Either way, Ranma can, if she chooses to attend school at all, pass as a male. Ukyo fooled everyone 10 years... Ranma can't possibly do worse. She's very skilled at deception when she wants to, though not at Nabiki's level, and it'd be easy enough for her to act as a male, seeing how, well... she WAS one.

I'd probably go with a compromise. Perhaps leather type stuff that's short enough and flexible enought to fight in. Chinese dresses the same way as Shampoo. A lot of them can be good fighting togs.

Ranma seemed to hate the chinese dress when she was working as a waitress. I highly doubt she'd wear one again, or choose it for that matter. In fact, I doubt she'd wear Chinese stuff again... too many bad memories. Perhaps a restyling?

As to the Outers and Kasumi moving to fast. Well they did limit the dresses to 3 and said she'd wear them when appropriate (or didn't have anything else to wear)

Sigh... you miss the point. The mere fact they forced her to buy dresses is like sprinkling salt on the fresh wound. It just reminds Ranma of what she lost. Considering how prone to anger she is now, I don't understand why she didn't just let a Fear Flare loose at point blank.
And I don't understand how the Senshi and Kasumi can even feel comfortable enough to push their decisions on her, since the Flare is permanently active, even if weakened, and would make them way too edgy to try and order her around. You just don't 'order around' someone who feels as creepy as Ranma does.

[GenocideHeart]

Well when Ranma wore dresses before, he could always return later to being a man. This time, he can't. Won't he want to keep some of what was taken away from him?
I could see him wearing them, but for very specific reasons, like spying or trying to stay undercover. However, now that his male side is gone, I would see Ranma trying to retain his manhood despite the current body. Thats just me though.

That's also a very important consideration. I mean, not only has she lost the option to change back, but she's even losing HERSELF to a dark force. If I were her, I'd be afraid enough to want to desperately cling to even the smallest shred of familiarity I can, even if I'd never admit I'd be afraid.
She's more likely to fight tooth and nail, even against Kasumi's wishes, to retain at least something of what she was, even if it's something as trivial as the clothes she wears.

[Nekomata-sensei]

I'd like to remind everyone about the mirror copy arc. Ranma dresses up in a very slinky dress just to try and show her female mirror copy how to flirt. Ranma has absolutely no problem wearing female garments in female form. He/she does it on his/her own initiative without complaint regularly, often for very little reason or just to get things to go easier, like when she dressed up at a cute waitress when Ukyo was sick and was working with Akane and Konatsu at the Ucchan's. (I'd also like to point out that if it weren't for the other two, Ranma would have had no trouble keeping the Ucchan's running properly, it was Konatsu and Akane causing all the problems, and Ranma can cook okonomiyaki competently, Konatsu was the one who splattered the customers with eggs when they tried to cook together)
Usually, Ranma prefers unisex clothes, especially in the beggining Ranma is more resistant to wearing female clothes. I think the last time Ranma complains about such things was saying no to wearing tights when Akane sprained her ankle before the martial arts rhythmic gymnastics match.
During the French Dining arc Ranma has no big complaints wearing the girls' clothing including the frilly dresses except when she/he discovers the iron corset it locked and Ranma can't change back to male whenever she/he wants.
Ranma would have IMO, no qualms about wearing clothes that Dark Moon would have liked instead of her normal clothes, just so long as they are good for fighting in, or even rather cute stuff, and on her own initiative too. Ranma even seems to carry with him/herself in hidden weapons space multiple feminine outfits as is demonstrated by Ranma's quick disguises and how Ranma often pulls bras and panties out of no where to throw and distract Happosai with. Ranma is obiously proud of her girl form's looks. I seem to remember one arc where Ranma goes to a shrine with the Tendos sisters and is wearing a miko outfit, no explaination is given, I assume Ranma just wanted to go as a miko. (was that that horse drawing arc?)

[ranger5]

Sigh... you miss the point.
(Sigh... now that I'm playing with color (see note below) my quote thingy ain't working right.)
Note: I'm basically playing with colored text to make certain things stand out, I'm not saying you can't have a different opinion.
Now on to the suggestions/reply.
No I got the point. I was just pointing out that compared to how they "could" react to the change they were being somewhat restrained. They could've gone with the "full immersion" idea, which would have triggered Ranma's ire.
Also pointing out the fact that they were limiting the "push" as noted in the chapter (only when needed or no other clothes were available) I DO tend to agree that they should probably wait a while before doing so, but they could've been a lot worse.
As to Ranma ONLY wearing feminine clothing when forced. I both agree and disagree.
Ranma can be very pragmatic in his own way. I Forget the volumne (and don't wanna go downstairs right now to look it up) BUT in the island vacation/school trip volumne Ranma was wearing a very skimpy two piece suit. (maybe due to vanity) Did he have to ... NO. Ukyo was shown in a one piece of a conservative nature. So did Ranma HAVE to wear the bikini... no she didn't . Yes, given the nature of the trip she had to wear something providing "decent" covereage of her "girl bits". Hence a girls suit ... BUT per your the counter-argument (as I understand it) when presented with the need she could've worn a suit more like regular shorts and shirt. I've seen girls in them, (don't know what they're called though) ... but she didn't she wore a very sexy two piece suit instead. So this is canon.[/color] I think the Takahashi waffled more than a bit on this in canon, as Ranma's complaints usually seemed the most stingent when she is being forced. So, yes I agree that she could've reacted much more negatively, BUT the author (of this fic) did show Ranma's dislike of the situation in general.
Then went on to show her accepting (grudgingly) the requirement. Don't forget either that Ranma wasn' paying so her acceptance may have been a bit easier for her to take given that the same ones wanting her to buy the dresses were also gonna pay for the clothes she really wanted.
(Perhaps that should/could be brought out a bit more ... or maybe I'm reading something into her acceptance that's not there)
As to the dislike of female chinese garments when working at the Neko-hanten. I don't think she really liked anything about the situation. Amazingly enough Takahashi's manga (at least here in the US) OFTEN has ranma in chinese dresses or pantsuits, and she wears them in several story arcs -- (if memory serves) I may have to go back and read what I've got. Which is slowly becoming more and more complete. Right now I'll admit I'm still missing several volumnes.
(Man I love a decent "arguement" when both sides tend to present actual arguements without personal attacks)
[color=brown]Again, her preference WILL probably be more "mannish" in general ... but it can definately be argued that canon Ranma did sometimes choose to wear "cute" or "sexy" female outfits of his own volition.
Hope you're still on to see your reply. But we do need to remember the point, were're trying to point of ways for the author to present the story. I'm simply giving reasons (which if added) may resolve the conflict in a way acceptable to most readers. Those against the idea have presented some valid points ... I'm just counter-pointing.
[/quote]

[GenocideHeart]

No I got the point. I was just pointing out that compared to how they "could" react to the change they were being somewhat restrained. They could've gone with the "full immersion" idea, which would have triggered Ranma's ire.
Also pointing out the fact that they were limiting the "push" as noted in the chapter (only when needed or no other clothes were available) I DO tend to agree that they should probably wait a while before doing so, but they could've been a lot worse.

My point is that, in the state of mind Ranma was, with most of her life ruined, that whole forcing her to buy dresses, ESPECIALLY with Dark Moon in the background, would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Remember, Dark Moon comes across as one who doesn't let ANYBODY tell her what to do, and Ranma herself hates being manipulated. So it'd be only natural for her to blow up at this, and in fact it's odd she did not.

Ranma can be very pragmatic in his own way. I Forget the volumne (and don't wanna go downstairs right now to look it up) BUT in the island vacation/school trip volumne Ranma was wearing a very skimpy two piece suit. (maybe due to vanity) Did he have to ... NO. Ukyo was shown in a one piece of a conservative nature. So did Ranma HAVE to wear the bikini... no she didn't . Yes, given the nature of the trip she had to wear something providing "decent" covereage of her "girl bits". Hence a girls suit ... BUT per your the counter-argument (as I understand it) when presented with the need she could've worn a suit more like regular shorts and shirt. I've seen girls in them, (don't know what they're called though) ... but she didn't she wore a very sexy two piece suit instead. So this is canon.[/color] I think the Takahashi waffled more than a bit on this in canon, as Ranma's complaints usually seemed the most stingent when she is being forced. So, yes I agree that she could've reacted much more negatively, BUT the author (of this fic) did show Ranma's dislike of the situation in general.

I'll admit that Ranma is vain, but he generally forces himself when wearing a feminine clothing. My guess is he figures, if I have to do it, might as well go out.
Now couple this with Kasumi's exact words... she could choose whatever she wanted. Now add Dark Moon's influence, and Ranma's natural exhibitionism, in both sexes. You think she'd choose a CHINESE DRESS? She's likely to pick metal and lace instead, simply based on Dark Moon's preferences. She unconsciously is affected by her outside battles several times in the past chapters... I can just see her choosing very racy stuff and not realize it unti afterwards, since she's tuning out an unpleasant chore.
Any way you look at it, that scene is wrong. It's both very OOC and the choices make little sense.

[ranger5]

You think she'd choose a CHINESE DRESS? She's likely to pick metal and lace instead, simply based on Dark Moon's preferences. She unconsciously is affected by her outside battles several times in the past chapters... I can just see her choosing very racy stuff and not realize it unti afterwards, since she's tuning out an unpleasant chore.

No all I said was she could ... and not be to far from canon. Again depending on how the "pragmatic" approach is taken. The clothes are indeed easy to fight in (reference Shampoo).

She's likely to pick metal and lace instead, simply based on Dark Moon's preferences. She unconsciously is affected by her outside battles several times in the past chapters... I can just see her choosing very racy stuff and not realize it unti afterwards, since she's tuning out an unpleasant chore.

True enough. I could see that being an option.
What I AM saying is that either could be developed. The response of this author (just needs a bit more work showing it... possibly done in a sentence or two) To reflect the attitude.
I.e.
Ranma's frown was nearly a glare as she considered the choices the other girls offered. Then she shuddered at the thought process that made her even think the words "other girls" made itself known in her mind.
Forcing herself to consider the clothes that surrounder her like an enemy army, Ranma decided to consider those options. She could see the need, (however reluctantly) for "nice" clothes, that didn't mean she had to like it. However the fact was indisputable that she was a girl now, at least in outward form, and may need "girls" clothes. Another shudder crawled it's way down her spine as she admitted that "fact" to herself.
Shrugging, the former boy decided that while she might have to to dress all girly once in a while, she'd do so on her own terms... and in clothes she could still fight in.
As she considered her choices a picture of Shampoo flashed across her mind. The Amazon wore clothes that definately showed she was an attractive woman... yet were easy to take care of and fight in... maybe she take that style and adapt it in her own way.
OKAY (g) I can't ever do anything in a sentence or two, but you get the idea. Feel free to use any of this you want ... or ignore it all.
The same type of thought process could be used to move the story along lines more in tune with your suggestions.

[Atlan]

You think she'd choose a CHINESE DRESS? She's likely to pick metal and lace instead, simply based on Dark Moon's preferences. She unconsciously is affected by her outside battles several times in the past chapters... I can just see her choosing very racy stuff and not realize it unti afterwards, since she's tuning out an unpleasant chore.

Dont forget, in this life, the sexyist person ranma has probably me is shampoo (not counting the teacher, that would be pedophillia). And shampoo always wears realy, realy tight chinese dresses. So ranma wearing that does make sense. Having him in shomething tight, black and made of leather makes more sense, but the chinses dress does work.
As for ranma wearing girl clothes, i have two parts of the manga to point out. The first is during the 'Herb and the Locking ladle' arc, where ranma, Mousse and Ryoga are working at a bathouse (or something like that, but it did have an outdoor hot pool). Ranma is in a female kimono, looking very feminine. (S)he could have been doing the same work as Ryoga and Mousse, but opted for the easer work, not caring about the whole 'girly-ness' aspect.
The other part i have to mention is when Nokoda is taking 'Ranko' and Akane bra shopping. After ranma gets over being all iritable, (s)he starts cerously checking out how (s)he looks. He definatly has vanity for his feminine side.
But man, I have to agree about Kusami and the way she says one thing and does another. Needs thought and work on that one.

[crystlshake]

I think they jump into the shopping for female stuff to quickly as well. Considering they are trying to reinforce Ranma's personality so it isnt consumed or overridden by the Dark Moon persona, I would think they would leave the clothes choice completely up to him (not require anything) that way she (he) can reinforce his self image of what he is with his choices. Pushing for the girl clothes (even if required) would be like telling him to embrace the dark persona he's trying to keep in check.
I think the better way to go about it would be require the shopping trip since neither he nor Kasumi packed any of their belongings before they left. Then have the others distracted in the dress section with Kasumi while Ranma gets clothes he is more comfortable in (likely the same or similar to his regular clothes). Have Ranma suprise them by coming into the section wearing the dress or something. Such as Haruka getting distracted by a certain redhead heading their way and not until she gets close do any of them realize who it is. This also helps get around the fact that the outers havent known her for very long at all and socialy even if living together it isnt really their place to even suggest what Ranma should wear. Kasumi at least has some social standing to do so but with the inner battle he is waging wouldnt want to push the issue especially this soon after becoming a permannent female.
As far as dressing for school, if the enforcement of uniforms is stronger at Juban perhaps have Ranma wear a male uniform or even better wear whatever she wants in spite of the rules (since she doesnt want to go that much anyway). This is anouther way that he can hold onto what he was. As far as the undergarments perhaps have Kasumi/Haruka suggest a bra/sports bra after he complains about his breasts hurting.
I guess my point is that considering the fears of his friends and the dark aspect of the princess inside of him, they are going to want to do all they can to help him stay as much himself as possible. Not to mention they probably dont want to invoke the wrath of his scarier persona.
One thing I found kind of odd is that Kuno seemed oblivious to the fear flare. Perhaps have him question himself or freeze up just before impact. Would go good with Ranma telling him 'she' is the evil sorcerer.
There were also two grammer errors though i cant recall where they were. Grown was used instead of groan and, aloud was used instead of allowed.

[deathgeonous]

Well, I got it back from my beta, and I'm posting this on FF.net pretty much as is, with only the grammer mistakes corected. I liked how I wrote this chapter, and this I'm sorry to say, but any changes that I could have made for the betterment of this chapter, got sqawshed by the endless debate this turned in to. I put this up here for some helpfiul advice, not to start an endless debate that no one will win. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it's how I feel.

[Atlan]

Except for Kusami's 180° on what she said she was going to do, nothing else realy needed changing. It was all a matter of taste.