Need some help designing a character

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Hi. I had an idea for a Ranma 1/2 fiction recently and I'd like to put it together. However, I need a little help designing an Original Character (who ties into the plot); specifially, I need help coming up with some techniques and to ensure he's not slipping into "Mary Sue" territory.

The basic premise is this; in most stories that try to expand on Ranma's lineage, it almost invariably turns that, if they aren't focusing on Nodoka's side of the family, Ranma isn't actually Genma's son. Well, I want to write my own version and to actually work on the Saotome/paternal side of things. The character I need help desinging is "Hayate Saotome (Or Saotome Hayate, whichever you prefer), and he's Genma's father in this story. The basic premise for this character is something of a distortion of canon, but that's just a fact of life with this category of story.

The basic changes/distortions I'll be making to the canon, other than the fact Ranma actually has a grandparent still alive, is that the Saotome and Tendo schools are older than just Genma and Soun, and that they simply sought out Happosai to progress beyond their basic training or for the same sort of reason Genma dragged Ranma away from his mother at a young age. Also, the Saotomes have something of a hereditary trait where they just aren't willing to give up the life of a roving martial artist, which is why there's no Saotome Dojo; none of the school's heirs have ever been able to build and run one.

The basic premise of the story is this. Hayate's wife died a short while after Genma and Nodoka got married, and a few months later, Hayate left to resume travelling the world in order to improve his martial arts. He may be in between his late 70s and early 90s, but that's still pretty young compared to Happosai and Cologne, so he hasn't really slowed down. When the story begins, he wanders into Nerima on a whim to see his son- alternatively, he's heard rumors of a powerful young martial artist who claims to be a Saotome, and wants to meet this stranger (Hayate started his journey before Ranma was even born, and thus has no idea he has a grandson).

I'm not entirely sure where to take it from there, but I'll work that out. So what's your opinion? Does it sound like an interesting idea? As I asked before, can anyone suggest special techniques Hayate may have (either as part of the Saotome school, which in this story is 6 to 8th generation (Ranma), or picked up on the road)? Or perhaps what his personal "style" of the Saotome School of Anything-Goes might be?

[Winchester]

This sounds pretty interesting. I see a few ways this can go...

The first thing that springs to mind is that there must be a reason why Hayate hasn't run into Genma and Ranma during their wanderings. It *may* be random chance, but there are other explanations to choose from. One is that Hayate has been out of Japan, wandering the rest of the world; another is that Genma is scared of Hayate and has been keeping an ear out so he could avoid him.

Depending on their relationship, Hayate may have very different reactions to encountering Genma again - he might be proud of Genma for training Ranma so well, he may be disappointed at the stuff Genma has done, etc.

SP

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

The reason Hayate has never run into Ranma & Genma before is partially chance, but for the most part it's because Hayate has literally been all over the world, while Genma kept Ranma exclusively in Japan before their trip to China (I don't know if it's ever doumented how long they were in China or where the went before the whole Jusenkyo thing).

As for how Hayate and Genma get on... the relationship is mostly friendly, though Genma does get nervous around his father due to the latter's tendency to become... 'displeased'... when Genma does something stupid. On one hand, he's likely to approve of Ranma's skill and talent. On the other hand, he disapproves of Genma's laziness and is not likely to be happy when he finds out aout the various dirty tricks, petty schemes and stupid stunts Genma pulled on the training trip (Cat-Fist and Jusenkyo spring to mind instantly...).

[Heaven's Deamon]

Another thing to consider is knowledge of other people in Ranma's life. Knowing of the Hibikis due to his wandering, or knowing Happosai could be explained, He could have wandered through the jusenkyo area and met the amazons, But then why wouldn't they recognize Ranma's surname? If Hayate knows everyone Ranma's ever dealt with it will make it harder for people to see him as anything other than a mary sue, so you do need to limit that knowledge. I'd say that he should have no experiance with the amazons or jusenkyo except for maybe hearing of them from other travelers.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I was figuring on having it that he doesn't know any of the Nerima cast when he first shows up, with maybe the possible exception of Ryoga (he might have run into one of Ryoga's parents on the road in Japan). The only exception I can think of is Happosai, and he knows him simply by rumour and hearsay; the legendary "demon martial artist", the perverted grandmaster and thief who pillaged and groped his way across Japan before being sealed away. Finding out that his own son actually calls this disgrace his master is not going to be a pleasant event for any of them.

[WG_Writer]

the best way to determine if someone is a mary sue is this:

Amount of trouble caused by this character for others < Problems solved

so make sure that even if he helps out Ranma in some way that it causes an equal amount of trouble.

Such as Cologne recognizing him by a nickname as someone who she wants their bloodline in the tribe (gives a reverse connection for recognition, without solving anything but making Cologne more insistent that he Marry shampoo). you could even have the reverse and have him believe based on third hand knowledge that the amazons are man eaters (any male martial artist that strays into their lands disappears. where as females do seem to survive but are merely chased off.)

That would be if you want connections. If you don't want a connection then make sure that for every good thing he does, it causes a bad thing.

What a Mary Sue is in the barest form is a story ender, a character that will through action or inaction, desire or not, solve all the problems in the story. look at Ukyo, she adds both a friend, which Ranma needs, but is also fixated on their engagement. She is violent when pushed too far, but generally playful (times she hits Ranma are in good natured and not typically out of rage)and friendly.

I once was part of a panel about this, about a year ago actually, and may join it again. My recommendation is to use the D&D system or a similar system of character creation. I don't mean leave it entirely up to that, but some good character flaws can really help them seem more then a plot resolution engine.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Thanks for the tips on how to avoid making a mary-sue character. Can you suggest any special techniques for me to to give him? Because I know that another way to make a mary-sue is to make a character so powerful that they can crush the protagonists like a bug (not to mention I don't have the faintest idea on how to design techniques). I was thinking he might have one extremely powerful move, but this is his "Magnum Opus"; his great work, a trechnique he's spent almost all of his life developing- and he hasn't worked out the kinks in it yet. Other than that, I got nothing.

[Heaven's Deamon]

Well, One thing that needs to be considered is how he fights, If he is a primarily air based combatant, like Ranma is often said to be in fics, then a good ability might be releasing small bursts of ki from various parts of his body in a manner reminiscent of a space probe's manuvering thrusters, Basicly, the technique would allow him to alter trajectory and move in mid air to set up more attacks and make it easier to dodge while in the air.

[Nekomata-sensei]

Avoiding a Mary Sue is important, I agree.
Perhaps Hayate has a few enemies of his own, foes with crazy complexes who think they should be the strongest because of their family and are enraged to be defeated, and their entire family is blood feuding with the Saotomes, wanting to kill every Saotome, so the person in Ranma's generation from that clan goes after Ranma, bringing about a new rival for Ranma, perhaps one with special abilities, like some sort of special demonic bloodline or something.

Genma and Ranma's base skills, in comparison to Soun, and without the theif aspects, seem to be an acrobatic style emphasising ajility and stamina. Perhaps Hayate takes this a step furthur, he's even faster and more ajile than Ranma, Happosai, or Cologne, and has all sorts of strange moves emphasising flexilibilty and speed. Between Soun and Genma, Genma seems more familiar with ki manipulation, at least in the manga, so perhaps he gave Genma some ki training before going off wandering when his wife died, Genma ending up training with Soun under Happosai, and Hayate could have a few powerful ki techniques, possibly be a ki user near the level of Herb, but without cold ki techniques or flight techniques, instead techniques more focusing on indirect confrontation, like a solar flare type technique, a technique to give danger senses 'red herrings', small ki blasts that can be controlled after being shot to track opponents and swarm them, controlling their movements, and maybe a self-healing technique and some disabling pressure point attacks. Some skills that would be useful to travelers might be good as well, such as using travel items as weapons much like Ryoga does.

Rather than do anything that solves Ranma's problems, while meaning well and being smarter than Genma, he wants Ranma to solve his own problems, and the only thing he does is stop Genma from interfering too much and messing up Ranma, meanwhile he is putting Ranma through his own challenging training, bringing new rivals for Ranma, and demanding Ranma also do well in school and show more honor and manners and respectablity despite having rivals constantly being unfair. He could put pressure on Ranma to be good, polite, inteligent, honorable and honest, trying to solve his own problems and trying to not cause other problems and negotiate his way out of pointless conflicts, and to train in his family style, despite Ranma already being overburdened by the chaos of Nerima, forcing Ranma to deal with the same problems, plus more problems, and new constraints and required activities which Ranma can barely keep up with and is being run to the ground by training and rivals and fiancees and having to be nice and work hard in school as well. Ranma would be running out of patience, but wanting to have his grandfather approve of him and earn his acknlogement more than Genma, because his grandfather would be treating him better than most everyone else, but with greater expectations as well. People could misinterpret Ranma's new intentions and Ranma could be desparately trying to hide past mistakes and misinterpretatoins of others about his actions from his grandfather, such as Akane's opinion that he's a pervert, or the neko-ken. Perhaps his grandfather also wants him to come with on a training trip with him, or some sort ones, but lots of others want to prevent Ranma from leaving causing all sorts of conflicts.

Hayate might not like Cologne and Happosai, but know they are beyond his league if it were a serious fight, and knows that they won't allow him to just talk them out of the problems they cause Ranma, so he is non-confrontational towards them and tries to negotiate compromises or simply allows them to do whatever while preparing Ranma to better deal with them, as he sees Ranma has the potential to surpass him and them.

Maybe Hayate could come along with a way to contact Ryoga's parents that allows Ryoga to find them and get more training, and thus be able to provide an even greater challenge for Ranma as he gets training in new skills from his grandfather, like a cell-phone number. Other rivals could find other new sources of power/training as well, Kuno could find a magic item that boosts his abilities or gives him some special skills, Mousse could find a specialist at blind-fighting and ki-vision that would help negate his major weakness of poor vision and might give him more advanced ki skills and defensive abilities, Tsubasa could return having learned some ninjutsu and often be random people and objects Ranma passes by and leap out to attack him, Gosunkugi could actually find a good magic book or magic teacher and start becoming a serious spellcaster who threatens Ranma with all sorts of curses and illusions and summoned monsters, Shampoo could pass some test of Cologne in order to get higher levels of training and use those new levels to pester Ranma all the more, Akane could become more insistent of being taken seroiusly as a martial artist despite having the power gap between her and the NWC get even wider and possibly more of them more willing to kill her if they can make it look like an accident or she provoked them into the fight, so while Ranma is getting new training and skills, the difficulty of his challenges is increasing as well.

Perhaps Hayate is simply disoriented by the chaos of Nerima and isn't sure what to do to help Ranma, plus doesn't of course spend all his time with Ranma, and a lot of problems that he might have tried to help Ranma with Ranma is left on his own to deal with, and Hayate admonishes him later for things Ranma did to solve or even cause those problems that he hears of which he doesn't approve of, even if they are untrue hearsay.

Hayate might believe that whatever problems Ranma has, he's still young, so there is still a chance of preventing him from turning out like Genma, and turning him around, but Hayate has no idea how to help Ranma, despite being more inteligent and responsible than Genma, because the problems are just too many and too complex and he doesn't know every aspect of the situation, and doesn't feel confident about helping Ranma as he wants to because of his failures with Genma.

Hayate could have some comical weakness, like he is bald and very sensitive about it, and becomes upset and distracted if his baldness is mentioned or a wig is taken off him, or be childishly argumentative, rather than discuss things maturely, he yells back and forth with people he doesn't agree with, trying to make them listen to him and get the last word, showing great stubbornness like Ranma. Maybe he hasn't aged as well as Happosai and Cologne and he could be a skilled fighter but easily hurt himself due to something like arthritis or his stamina having droppped in his old age. Perhaps he might be greatly skilled, but prefers to hide his skills and solve problems diplomatically, but nobody in Nerima takes him seroiusly because he is too moral to be as dangerous as Nabiki despite his inteligence and negotiating skills, and they underestimate him martially, thinking he's not a threat to their plans. Maybe he's as struck by his wife's death as Soun and is nearly constantly melencholy and un-motivated, and traveled more to have an excuse to forget things and avoid responsibilities, but now has returned out of guilt but is mostly debilitated by nightmares and memories that keep assaulting him and making him more upset. Maybe he's more focused on Genma and Nodoka than Ranma and while he trains Ranma and has certain expectations of him, he leaves Ranma mostly to his own devices. Maybe he wants Ranma to make his own decisions about which girl he wants to marry before he goes through and solves all of Ranma's problems so his Mary Sue aspect could be delayed until Ranma has decided _which_ girl he wants to marry, which Ranma would be very indecisive about, since Hayate's plans would leave all the others to dishonor, basically forcing them to leave Ranma alone by figuratively twisting their arms.

Some ways I'd like to see Hayate train Ranma, mostly inspired from other sources:

Vow of Silence-Ranma could take a temporary vow of silence and have to solve all his problems without speaking, forcing him to think before communicating and to learn Genma's panda-sign trick and not put his foot in his mouth so much.
Blindfolded- In order to hone Ranma's other senses and his danger sense, Hayate could make Ranma go blindfolded for a period of time, Ranma would have to learn brail or have others read to him, and learn to recognize people by auras/voices or something along those lines, and learn some way of navigating without vision.
Weights- A-la-Rock Lee, Ranma could be forced to wear heavy weights, although I'd prefer it not to be just leg weights, but a vest and arm weights as well, and there could be some difficulty fitting the weights so that they work for both of Ranma's forms, the weights would be leading to greater strength and speed, but also present a new challenge since while wearing them Ranma is effectively weaker, slower and heavier.
Obstacle courses, possibly trapped- Ranma would have to navigate difficult training courses Hayate comes up with.
No ki training- Using some method to suppress Ranma's ki, he would force Ranma to stop using his ki as a crutch for any lack of martial arts skills and real physical strength, speed, and toughness. Ranma would have to grow greatly in skill in order to face his rivals without any ki to boost his abilities or special ki techniques, especially when they have no such restrictions.
Ki focusing training- perhaps specific training for each of speed, stregth, and toughness, Ranma would have to use learn to use his aura to protect from pelting rocks and surprise attacks and hold some special defense technique for a long time, Ranma would have to learn to power up his muscles in a certain way and surpass a certain speed limit set by his grandfather, or perhaps win some sort of special race, maybe he'd have to complete a marathon in a certain time-limit using ki boosting to test both speed and endurace, and the path he has to follow would also have traps and maybe areas where he has to swim or climb or do acrobatics or jump, and for strength Ranma could have to support some heavy weight for a certain length of time, or learn to make ki boosted really devastaing punches and kicks similar to Tsunade from Naruto. Or rather than boosting natural abilities, there could also be training in ki control, perhaps something like the finger on the point upside down training thing in YuYuHakushou, or Ranma would have to learn to focus his ki enough to blast through some ki resistant/absorbant target with a special technique, or Ranma would have to make a ki ball that he can control enough to make it through an obstacle course without destroying anything but the target at the end of it. Perhaps Ranma would have to learn how to suppress his aura for a long time, he could have to wear some restrictive device that zaps him when it senses any energy coming off Ranma or Ranma makes any loud noises in order to teach Ranma stealth and energy containment. Or Ranma could have to learn aura sensing detecting aura fluctuations from his grandfather while blindfolded, pointing to the areas where the ki is projected to and saying when it drops or raises. Maybe Ranma would have to learn some crazy aura tricks like the giant-aura that Happosai loves and do some certain task with it, like make it solid enough to pick something up and hold it for a while and not be see through, or create enough killer intent to scare some brave trained martial arts pet, or knock down a single pin at the back of a set of blowing pins with his ki without disturbing a bunch of lose papers all around him or the other pins, in order to have exacting control of his aura, or to creat an aura without any heat or cold to it by making him wear thermo-sensitive stuff that goes off or something when Ranma's ki gets hot or cold, so Ranma would have to learn to create an aura that produces only pressure, no heat or cold, which would negate the usefulness of hot/cold ki techniques against him. Or even the more classic and overused cold/emotoinal ki is bad for you turning you into an insane troll like Happosai or Cologne so you have to learn to use pure ki shtick and purify your aura, and learn a new set of safe ki techniques to replace your old emotion using ones.
Neko-ken- to defeat the fear and to either merge with the neko-ken personality or spirit or defeat and expell or seal away the neko-ken demon, mostly through meditation type techniques and spiritual training.
Training for the girl type- Ranma is very skilled and strong in male form, but not nearly so in girl form, despite having it for a while, Ranma's movements aren't quite right for maximium efficiency in girl form, so to negate the weaknesses of his cursed form, Ranma has to stay in it for a while to get used to it's body movements, it's ki, if the ki is different in this story, and the different balance and slightly different stances and style to take advantages of the differences and negate the weaknesses of the girl form.

And of course Ranma's enemies would go out of their way to make sticking to his training more difficult for Ranma or take advantage of any temporary weaknesses or honor restrictions his training or his grandfather bring.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Thank you for that massive post Nekomata-sensei... now, how to respond...

In terms of his relationship with Ranma and direct impact on Nerima, I was thinking that Hayate doesn't outright do anything to interfere; partially due to the fact he's somewhat disorientated, but mostly due to two factors: Ranma needs to learn to solve his problems on his own (though he's always availible to give Ranma advice- or perhaps a "gentle" nudge) and, perhaps more importantly, no Saotome has ever reacted well to being told what to do. Family they may be, but Ranma wouldn't grow outright if Hayate is directly ordering him to do so. Hayate also sees that Ranma is his own person, and other than the aforementioned advice, isn't going to try and make him change who he is- Hayate's code of honor and what's right would never allow him to force someone to be someone they're not.

Of course Hayate is going to offer training to Ranma (which he'd naturally acept) and bring his own troubles to Nerima, but like you mentioned his mere presence is going to be disruptive. For example, what might happen if the various factions that want to marry Ranma find out that Hayate is the real clan head, which means he can override Genma's contracts or basically that he's the one who can gainsay or naysay their engagement? As you've already mentioned, he may decide to train some of Ranma's rivals to ensure they're "worthy opponents" for his grandson- though he may regret it after the fact when he finds out how unstable they are. Another possibility is that he might find Happosai so offensive he actually swears a vow to bring the old lecher to justice, which gives an excuse for him to be off the scene for sometime (trying to track down and beat the ancient pervert).

In terms of flaws... as a Saotome, Hayate is extremely proud of his martial arts prowess and has a very hard time refusing any challenge. Next up, he's childishly argumentive- like you suggested. Thirdly, he still retains a full head of hair, only now beginning to gray, and he's very proud of it; insulting/damaging this is one way garaunteed to piss him off. His ki reserves are strong, but his flesh is weak; he's less damage resistant and has less stamina than Ranma does. Finally, Hayate's an observering sort; he's not going to throw himself head-first into the usual mess until he knows for sure what's going on and has assessed everything. While not as cautious in battle, this does mean he's likely to be classed as a "noncombatant", like Genma and Soun.

I'm grateful for the advice on his fighting style and "concepts" for techniques, but could you suggest actual techniques and/or names?

[crystlshake]

You could have it that Genma misses Hayate and is overjoyed to first come across him again. Perhaps some of the trip was spent looking for his long lost parent. Or maybe he thought he had died in some training accident or something. Heh, perhaps a paper clipping reporting his death due to a training accident or natural hazzard. Scrape away a little jelly or something to reveal it to be a near-death.

As far as techniques go, the agile fighting style sounds appropriate (as a family style would probably build on the core aspects to improve). The Saotome Secret Techniques may be from the family line. Perhaps a young Genma sat in wondering awe of the legendary Crouch of the White Tiger and its ability to save the hide of the dedicated martial artist.

In line with many of the techniques and schools already existing, you'll probably want to combine the 'feel' of the style (in this case agility/positioning/movement) with a theme of some sort (or keep the feel as the theme). For example Genma's Hell Craddle is more of a grappling strength and leverage based move, while Happi's Butterfly Kiss (the pipe throw) seems based more on leverage and using your opponents strength against them. If Hayate is older and possesing less stamina/strength than in his youth, the strategy, positioning and lower physical demands of throws and redirection type moves would probably find their way into his repitoir. Not to say that he probably wouldnt have some impresive moves that use strength, just that the fighting style would adjust for efficiency.

An example: Morning (Rising pun) Sparrow Ascent- Launch the opponent into the air via an uppercut, use the momentum to roll/backflip back and onto feet with extra traction from the falling motion pulling toward the ground. Use the feet to launch body at opponent. Hit the opponent with a rolling kick/ punch motion toward the ground to use the extra centrifugal force to gain extra height from the attack. This type of move would have to be quick due to the sparrow monicker and would probably be a set up type move to better position the opponent on the field, throw them off ballance and put the user in the air for the follow up. (Incidently perhaps Hayate used the precision of this move to throw Genma out his window in the morings.)

Given Genma's feelings about weapons, his relationship with his father could be the cause. If its a good relationship, perhaps slip in some recolection about some moving bonding moment they had that caused that belief to be instilled so strongly in him. Seeing him take out some armed punks or perform an amazing feat(that normally requires tools) and then telling Genma something like the body is the strongest and most reliable tool/weapon one which will never fail you if you treat it with the proper respect. (some could argue that imbibing acohol is making a tribute in reverence, sort of like a temple....)