Joketsuzoku and Meltlandi

[mackon]

I had the bare bones of this idea on another site hopefully here someone will have some thoughts and input on the concept.

Set in the Robotech verse rather than Macross for obvious reasons. The core idea Meltlandi=Amazon is touched on in one of the epic length Ranma/Robotech crossovers archived on FF.Net but is only a brief mention and not hugely relevant to that story, hopefully something can come of it though.

An Amazon centric fic focusing on Cologne, Shampoo and their tribe. The events in Ranma happening at least mostly the same, but with the Amazons having a larger agenda.

(Background)

Three thousand years go a Meltlandi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zentraedi (female Zentradi) troop carrier http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/new.images/Meltlandi/Meltran_troopship_MM.gif crash lands in a valley in the Bayankala Mountain Range in what would one day be China. The survivors of the wreck after getting a good look at the locals use micronization on some of their number to send out as scouts. The ships damaged reactors and Protoculture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoculture_%28anime%29 energy source goes critical and explodes killing those Meltlandi that stayed on-board. The scouts a few hundred but well equipped and heavily armed now stuck human sized wander the world for hundreds of years first as raiders/mercenary's then slowly developing into the Chinese Amazons and forgetting the truth of their origins. Centuries later they return to the land that their most ancient legends tell them is their birth place.

While they've been gone things have changed the Protoculture has infected a local plant creating something like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Life_%28fiction%29 Flower of Life which in turn has polluted the local water sources.

They find the Jusenkyo Valley and settle in, soon learning of the Pools of Sorrow and its dangers. They also encounter the Phoenix People plus the beginnings of the Musk tribe, both groups claiming the area as their own, starting a long series of wars.

The Pools of Sorrows and by extension both the Phoenix People and the Musk are the results of the wreck of the Meltlandi ship buried over the centuries its Protoculture Matrix and the mutant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Life_%28fiction%29 Flower of Life now sprouting out of a small hill near the Amazon village and used in most Amazon recipes and ceremonial drinks.

(Story what little there is of it)

A Young Cologne out exploring finds her way into the wreck of the Meltlandi troopship and encounters the ships AI (I'm assuming Zentradi/Meltlandi had pretty good AI in partial control of their ships since they were not big on maintenance) The AI has gone through a lot of weirdness and is directly plugged into the remains of the ships drive the protoculture energy cells and through those the water and the whole valley. It also has a psychic connection with the Amazons due to their eating the Flower and has taken on the personification of their patron goddess Artemis.

Artemis is slightly prophetic and can sense the coming destruction of the valley (and most of the rest of the world) that will result from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolza#Dolza Dolza's orbital attack but is powerless to do anything about it. What she can do is sense (again through Precognition and her connection to the Pools of Sorrow) that in a few centuries one Saotome Ranma is going to be a major factor in a chain of events that could be guided to save the valley or at least help the Amazons get the hell out of dodge before the axe falls.

(Ideas)

High power ki/chi masters are a good thing for Protoculture the stuff that Zentradi/Meltlandi technology is based on. Having them around allows generate masses of life energy make it operate better more efficiently and even grows slowly making it under the right circumstances renewable.

Cologne sees Meltlandi as Amazons who just don't know their Amazons and who need her guidance.


(((()))))
A/N Any feedback is good feedback, even just pointing out a logic fail you see in the setup could give me something to work with and build from.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

The words "reactor" and "critical" do not fit with a spaceship that is still semi-operational and explorable.

[Wyrd]

(I'm assuming Zentradi/Meltlandi had pretty good AI in partial control of their ships since they were not big on maintenance)

According to some of the Robotech source material, the Zentraedi were deliberately not taught how to fix any of their equipment to keep them dependent on the Robotech masters. This way, even if a group rebelled, attrition would destroy their ships eventually. They were also given very limited knowledge directly downloaded into their brains on how to perform their specific function and no other to help keep them from developing themselves enough to figure out how to fix things or to even considering rebelling.

The human ability to build and repair Macross city inside the SDF-1 is one of the things that had the Zentraedi so convinced that the humans had mastery of protoculture and were just pretending ignorance to keep them from learning the secrets.

The words "reactor" and "critical" do not fit with a spaceship that is still semi-operational and explorable.

The reactor on full sized ship is actually a single plant held in a matrix that absorbs the energy it generates in the process of trying to grow. This plant, also know as protoculture or the flower of life when allowed to bloom, can sprout rather violently if the containment field fails. If it fails from too little power instead of from too much, I could see the plant doing enough damage to take out the crew when combined with the radiation released when containment was breached, especially if some of the primary damage was to life support, miniaturization, and/or some other critical components that may not have killed off the crew directly, but meant that the only crew members capable of breeding with the locals were the already miniaturized scouts. Zentraedi ships are single gender, so the giants wouldn't have any males they could mate with and would eventually just die out naturally. You could even have some mention about a few of them going out into the world and being the source of some of the legends of giants such as Goliath.

If the ship could still draw a reduced amount of power from the sprouted plant, that could be part of how it gained a connection to the spreading flower and the things it contaminated. The flower of life is extremely adaptable, and could (in some interpretations of it) easily decide to incorporate the ship into itself as it grows, especially since the ship is already designed around the plants energy signature. The plant is generally not portrayed as actually sentient, but in many ways acts as if it were, especially in how it acts to defend itself and adapt itself to its environment. One of the major powers of the blossomed flower of life is enhancing the perceptions of other beings, including granting some level of precognitive ability through long term exposure.

Something you might want to consider is saying that the computer of the ship is actually organic itself (the crew did not know this), so it isn't really an AI so much as it is a programmed brain that has been convinced that it is entirely artificial. Doing this makes the ship integrating with the flower, developing independent sentience, and even developing precognitive abilities much more believable. Also, I would suggest making the name of the ship the Artemis, so that it is not that the ship has taken on the personification of their goddess, it is a matter where they confused in their legends the computer that gave their ancestors directions on how to run the ship and brought them to Earth with a goddess who actually created them.

Yes, I'm a Robotech geek. I never studied the Macross version of the story much at all. Robotech was really my introduction into anime and the level of quality it often had that Western animation tended to lack.

edit: fixed a quote tag

[Knight of L-sama]

According to some of the Robotech source material, the Zentraedi were deliberately not taught how to fix any of their equipment to keep them dependent on the Robotech masters. This way, even if a group rebelled, attrition would destroy their ships eventually.

By source material are you referring to Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeda? Because for Macross it's at least half right. The Zentradi (Meltandi was a word created specifically for 'Do You Remember Love' which in the greater Macross Canon was a movie made some time between 2012 and 2040 that became common use because of it) weren't trained in repair and maintenance work. If it was to prevent rebellion it failed rather badly, though partly due to external influences (aka the Evil/Protodevelin. See Macross 7 if you dare) but there was eventually a civil war with rebelling Zentradi on one side and Loyalist Zentradi and their creators, known as the Supervision Army, on the other though in the end it was just two separate factions of Zentradi.

Yes, I'm a Robotech geek. I never studied the Macross version of the story much at all. Robotech was really my introduction into anime and the level of quality it often had that Western animation tended to lack.

Yeah, well the way you've set it up, you have no choice but to use Robotech because the Macross meaning of 'protoculture' is completely different and incompatible. In Macross Protoculture simply refers to the first technological civilisation in the galaxy, creators of the Zentradi (and the Protodevelin) and at least in part, humanity since they were known to have tinkered with our genetic code sometime in the deep past. The whole 'Flower of Life' thing owes most of its existence to Mospeda.

[Wyrd]

Yeah, well the way you've set it up, you have no choice but to use Robotech because the Macross meaning of 'protoculture' is completely different and incompatible. In Macross Protoculture simply refers to the first technological civilisation in the galaxy, creators of the Zentradi (and the Protodevelin) and at least in part, humanity since they were known to have tinkered with our genetic code sometime in the deep past. The whole 'Flower of Life' thing owes most of its existence to Mospeda.

Yeah, well, when I spent several years reading and watching everything I could get on Robotech before even learning that the story was completely different in the Macross version, it sort of biased me towards the Robotech version of events. Besides, I love the fact that the entire SDF-1 was being fueled by four seeds in containment matrices. Four little seeds powered that super canon, their shields, folding space-- everything, and they sprouted after a pollinator(that little critter from the second series that was friends with the main character of it, a critter with a symbiotic relationship with the flower of life) got into the remains of the original engines(that had been replaced with new engines to fuel the exploratory mission looking for the Robotech masters).

[Spokavriel]

Centuries later they return to the land that their most ancient legends tell them is their birth place.

I wouldn't use Birth place. I would have it be where they came into this world. A Phrase that could mean birth and often is used for that but could also be more literal.

So not only are your Amazons strong fighters they are all hopped up on the flower like Khyron?

Artemis is an AI? my head hurts. How and why would a Computer be Prophetic? Its Isolated it cannot even document trends in the life cycles of local planet life! How? This is not something you can pull an author fiat on and say it just is. Its way too much to swallow. Even having some repaired long range sensors still connected detecting Space Fold activity slowly nearing the system makes more sense.

The words "reactor" and "critical" do not fit with a spaceship that is still semi-operational and explorable.

Good point Ellen. How about instead of having a still working reactor there are obvious roots from the plants growing into the former reactor and between the flowers mutation giving them deep roots and Jusenkyo's waters it somehow formed into something the AI found it could also use as its power source. Coincidence is hard to accept but its not a somehow working reactor that already blew up before.

You're talking about Mating. NEWS FLASH Meltran know nothing about Mating! Its Deliberate! Same for Relationships. Its a rather critical plot point that you have to overcome and not just ignore.

Now you want to claim that Meltran ships are effectively Brain Ships? (Ship who Sang Anne McCaffrey) Way too much to swallow and I can not imagine the Robotech Masters trusting the ship any more than they do the Zentraedi. It makes no sense, they wouldn't do it even if they could.

Here's my suggestion. The ship blows up because the flower has focused all its power into seeding its self. Something that wouldn't have been possible without damages from the crash. The seeds are dispersed during that and all systems in the ship die from lack of power. Later on the seeds roots reach back into the ship and water leaking in from Jusenkyo makes the critical connections for all the flowers up on the ground to provide the needed power for the ships systems to restore themselves. But the Magic of Jusenkyo is not attributed to the flowers at all. That way it can fill in some of your plot holes for changes to the computer. After all it is still powered by life energy.

[Wyrd]

Now you want to claim that Meltran ships are effectively Brain Ships? (Ship who Sang Anne McCaffrey) Way too much to swallow and I can not imagine the Robotech Masters trusting the ship any more than they do the Zentraedi. It makes no sense, they wouldn't do it even if they could.

That was my suggestion as a way to explain the limited prophetic abilities. They don't come from the mechanical portion of the ship, but from an organic part that could even be a necessary part of controlling the energy harvested from the seeds. Unlike in McCaffrey's books, in this version of the story these brains are artificial. They never had a body and are not aware themselves that they are anything more than advanced computers. The fact that the Zentraedi have to return to the masters for any repairs at all would keep them from ever discovering it, and wiping the brain on a regular basis would help alleviate the paranoia that is one of the hallmarks of the Robotech Masters. Even if the computer were purely mechanical in nature, I wouldn't expect them to trust an advanced AI that had time to develop itself beyond its initial parameters.

Another safeguard that could be built into the ships is that they are supposed to always remain linked to a central brain or to a network, a link that is damaged in the crash. Trying to reestablish this link is what causes it to link to the Amazons who have consumed enough of the flower of life to evolve. Much like the spice melange in Dune, the flower of life causes rapid evolution and increased longevity in those who ingest it. The nature and direction of that evolution depends on the stresses put on the body and mind how they are used while under its effects. Without meditation and training on how to focus the effects, they can drive a user quite insane, but with that training it could explain how powerful and cunning the Amazon elders are. Shampoo is the best of her generation but miles behind her elders not only because she lacks the experience, but because she hasn't consumed enough of the flower yet for her body to adapt to the higher level techniques that she would have been taught later on.

Genma getting his hands on some of the flower and overdosing Ranma while he is still very young could be used as part of the reason he adapts so fast and is so skilled. He had already been undergoing Genma's insane training, which only got more insane when Ranma started getting better and better at dealing with it. However, his adapting to combat so thoroughly came at the cost of some of the other portions of his brain developing less than they should have, such as his sexual awareness.

As for the mating issue, the first human zentraedi child was born less than a year after the end of the first Robotech series. They might not have understood sex before, but they figured it out pretty fast. Even the trait of taking as husband someone who first demonstrated their skill by besting the warrior in combat was introduced in the first season of the show, when the star Meltlandi pilot got beaten twice by the SDF's star pilot. The third time he beat her, she agreed to marry him... then asked what marriage was. Zentraedi also seem to live a bit longer than humans naturally, so they could have had enough time to discover mating, children, and decide that finding worthy mates was the best way for their crew to get new members who could one day fulfill their mission.

I'm not trying to say any of this is canon, I am just trying to suggest ways to interpret the two series while having as little contradiction with their various canons as possible.

[Spokavriel]

Any thoughts on my deep roots and Jusenkyo suggestion? And Even though I don't think a Biological brain makes sense. Having it completely lose power at any point would be messy. What about it somewhat getting a second hand Jusenkyo curse? Just not a full one. All the spiritual energy of the victims that die just after transforming or kill themselves not willing or able to cope with living cursed? Or just accidentally eaten as almost happened to Ryouga?

There are allot of ways to make it so systems connected with protoculture could change even without Jusenkyo involved but having it there as well you don't really have to have much in place before the miraculous circumstances arise.

As to the network you seem to be thinking of it like the Borg. What about bringing it more in line with UNSpacy's TAC net? Can't really have troops out of touch with Command when you can avoid it. Even just for keeping intel up to date.

[mackon]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses everybody!

Ok lets see what we've got.

The words "reactor" and "critical" do not fit with a spaceship that is still semi-operational and explorable.

Yes, it does sound a bit final and probably terrain altering doesn't it. So a limited catastrophe that kills the crew and leaves the ship and maybe the surrounding area uninhabitable for decades to centuries toxic/radiation leak or as Wyrd suggests secondary and backup reactors going up. It also does a lot of damage turning the mostly intact crashed ship into a real obviously unsalvageable wreck.

According to some of the Robotech source material, the Zentraedi were deliberately not taught how to fix any of their equipment to keep them dependent on the Robotech masters.

That's where the AI thought came from. With some of the other input from posters here I don't think it's needed any more at least not the way I'd first envisioned it. Still a very capable computer able to make up some of the shortcomings of the limited trained crew but not Sapient just complex and well programmed Sapience can come later when the Protoculture/Flower of Life gets involved.

If the ship could still draw a reduced amount of power from the sprouted plant, that could be part of how it gained a connection to the spreading flower and the things it contaminated. The flower of life is extremely adaptable, and could (in some interpretations of it) easily decide to incorporate the ship into itself as it grows, especially since the ship is already designed around the plants energy signature. The plant is generally not portrayed as actually sentient, but in many ways acts as if it were, especially in how it acts to defend itself and adapt itself to its environment. One of the major powers of the blossomed flower of life is enhancing the perceptions of other beings, including granting some level of precognitive ability through long term exposure.

This is good stuff and lines up well with they way I'd thought it would play out.

Something you might want to consider is saying that the computer of the ship is actually organic itself (the crew did not know this), so it isn't really an AI so much as it is a programmed brain that has been convinced that it is entirely artificial. Doing this makes the ship integrating with the flower, developing independent sentience, and even developing precognitive abilities much more believable. Also, I would suggest making the name of the ship the Artemis, so that it is not that the ship has taken on the personification of their goddess, it is a matter where they confused in their legends the computer that gave their ancestors directions on how to run the ship and brought them to Earth with a goddess who actually created them.

Computer being crystalline rather than organic might fit with Meltlandi/Zentradi technology as well as the age of some of the ships we see. As for the name of the ship I don't know if we've ever seen a ship with a name like that from the Meltlandi/Zentradi it would be a leap for it to mesh with the Greek Gods. I'd rather just have it as the ships computer just trying to help out the descendants of its crew than start rewriting the source material left and right. Maybe it can be sorted out more so its better integrated into Amazon myth and Robotech fluff.

Yeah, well the way you've set it up, you have no choice but to use Robotech because the Macross meaning of 'protoculture' is completely different and incompatible. In Macross Protoculture simply refers to the first technological civilisation in the galaxy, creators of the Zentradi (and the Protodevelin) and at least in part, humanity since they were known to have tinkered with our genetic code sometime in the deep past. The whole 'Flower of Life' thing owes most of its existence to Mospeda.

Of course that's the whole point and inspiration.

I wouldn't use Birth place. I would have it be where they came into this world. A Phrase that could mean birth and often is used for that but could also be more literal.

Very nice 'where they came into this world' has a legendary ring to it.

So not only are your Amazons strong fighters they are all hopped up on the flower like Khyron?

After thousands of years they've built up a good tolerance? It's a good point though that can be worked in with overdoses and other bad stuff.

Artemis is an AI? my head hurts. How and why would a Computer be Prophetic? Its Isolated it cannot even document trends in the life cycles of local planet life! How? This is not something you can pull an author fiat on and say it just is. Its way too much to swallow. Even having some repaired long range sensors still connected detecting Space Fold activity slowly nearing the system makes more sense.

No authorial fiat needed prophetic visions are part and parcel of Protoculture/Flower of Life wackyness and by the time Artemis would be having any glimpses of the future or possible futures it would have changed a lot from its ships computer origins. It depends how it plays out, when I first had any interest in this idea I'd just watched several Invid episodes of Robotech where mysticism and prophecy are central themes and they seemed to mesh well with Cologne and the Amazons. If a harder take seems like a good idea sensors detecting FTL activity would be doable, but it wouldn't really garner the same response as a vision of giant beams of energy descending from the heavens and shattering the Byankala Mountains and incinerating Jusenkyo valley.

Good point Ellen. How about instead of having a still working reactor there are obvious roots from the plants growing into the former reactor and between the flowers mutation giving them deep roots and Jusenkyo's waters it somehow formed into something the AI found it could also use as its power source. Coincidence is hard to accept but its not a somehow working reactor that already blew up before. That sound right.

You're talking about Mating. NEWS FLASH Meltran know nothing about Mating! Its Deliberate! Same for Relationships. Its a rather critical plot point that you have to overcome and not just ignore.

This was already worked out by other posters but the Meltlandi/Zentradi live quite a bit longer than humans certainly longer than humans of three thousand years ago so they'll have time to get used to certain ideas a lot longer than they took in canon on the show at this point their also travelling raiding and working as mercenaries so they'll have lots of opportunity.

Now you want to claim that Meltran ships are effectively Brain Ships? (Ship who Sang Anne McCaffrey) Way too much to swallow and I can not imagine the Robotech Masters trusting the ship any more than they do the Zentraedi. It makes no sense, they wouldn't do it even if they could.

Here's my suggestion. The ship blows up because the flower has focused all its power into seeding its self. Something that wouldn't have been possible without damages from the crash. The seeds are dispersed during that and all systems in the ship die from lack of power. Later on the seeds roots reach back into the ship and water leaking in from Jusenkyo makes the critical connections for all the flowers up on the ground to provide the needed power for the ships systems to restore themselves. But the Magic of Jusenkyo is not attributed to the flowers at all. That way it can fill in some of your plot holes for changes to the computer. After all it is still powered by life energy.

No nothing as intrusive as a Brain Ship. The AI I first conceived of would never interact with the crew but work behind the scenes making up for the crews lack of understanding of their tech, think more SW droid rather than Dahak.

The roots re-infesting the ship works well but magic is a big leap for Robotech Protoculture/Flower of Life wackyness is about as strange as it gets baring the power of music and love of course So putting the pools of sorrow down to Protoculture/Flower of Life seems a step forward into fusing the two universe while having the magic waters mess with ship technologies might be harder to pull off reasonably ... thoughts?

Genma getting his hands on some of the flower and overdosing Ranma while he is still very young could be used as part of the reason he adapts so fast and is so skilled. He had already been undergoing Genma's insane training, which only got more insane when Ranma started getting better and better at dealing with it. However, his adapting to combat so thoroughly came at the cost of some of the other portions of his brain developing less than they should have, such as his sexual awareness.

That works well, the sample Genma grabs doesn't even have to be directly from the Amazon they've been around along time others could have stolen some.

Great Stuff! Ok over the next few days I'll try to integrate everything, all your ideas and criticisms, into a new plot synopsis and we'll see how that looks! If you think of anything new to add before I can post the 2.0 version feel free the more the merrier!

[Spokavriel]

I suggested magic because magic does exist in the Ranmaverse. Between the items and situations there is no way to deny it is one of the fundamental aspects to the world. So having it contribute to changes in technology that doesn't really have other influences makes more sense to me than somehow the technology growing with connections to what it was originally designed to work with.

[Wyrd]

As for the name of the ship I don't know if we've ever seen a ship with a name like that from the Meltlandi/Zentradi it would be a leap for it to mesh with the Greek Gods

Or you could have the Amazons wonder to the West, where they talk about how they were brought into this world from the heavens by the great and powerful Artemis. Artemis doesn't happen to share the name of the Greek god, the Greeks worked the legends of the amazons into their pantheon. This especially fits with the facts that the Amazons were Greek myths in the first place(in our reality), with Artemis being their patron goddess.

The roots re-infesting the ship works well but magic is a big leap for Robotech Protoculture/Flower of Life wackyness is about as strange as it gets baring the power of music and love of course

In the Robotech novels, it is revealed that the vulnerability to exposure to the concepts of music and love was a deliberate flaw in their conditioning, put there by the scientist who developed the military conditioning programming under protest. He had no problem developing the original conditioning, which taught the Zentraedi their original purpose: how to mine effectively. Then again, that program wasn't designed by a group as paranoid as the Robotech masters, who thought having their warriors be as emotionless as possible would make them better warriors. This scientist then used music to convince a group of Zentraedi to rebel when he stole the ship that later became the SDF-1(the ship that crashed on Macross island), just to keep the most advanced ship he had ever designed out of the hands of his bosses, who had been consuming large quantities of the flower of life themselves and were a bit insane and increasingly paranoid at this point.

[Spokavriel]

Just thinking of something. In all of Robotech do they ever get into details of how the flower of life is cultivated and maintained?

What if the reason that the flower leads others to insanity is because they are giving the flowers an additive to increase their power output? Similar to the cigarette companies using all sorts of chemicals to cure tobacco faster. The result is a plant that isn't exactly as healthy for consumption as it was originally. That would make Khyron and the Robotech masters insane from the additive and not from the flower its self. That way the naturally growing flowers around Earth can be healthier to use for the benefits you were saying you wanted in this.

Just a suggestion.

[Makoto]

I can't remember if they had any mention in the Robotech episodes, but the Jack McKinney novels do allude to 'rumors' that Khyron was ingesting the raw petals of the Flower (and one or two actual small scenes of him doing it), as I recall. I don't have my copies of the novels out (they're all in a box in my closet), so I can't check the Masters/NG/Sentinels arcs for other references at the moment. (I probably should watch the series again, sometime...)

I can't remember what mentions they may have had in End of the Circle - but I usually discard that story, anyway, so...