Battle Fantasia: Idea Discussion Thread

[Comartemis]

and now fomr something that is really, really funny in a dark sence..when magic girls go bad how do you deal with them...
http://www.improfanfic.com/mgh/
and now for magic girl hunting.....

Ugh. No, I've seen that piece of trash you call a fanfic, and so has much of the rest of the main Battle Fantasia thread. We've decided that it's garbage on par with My Immortal and it has no place whatsoever in our series.

[Cheb]

One of the reasons why magical girls are needed: the dark forces could covertly subvert the soldiers you send against them, use psi attacks and mind control. Just imagine the first X-Com. Most of the losses is from your own soldiers suddenly shooting their squad-mates in the back, or just going berserk... while holding a grenade launcher. Not only your troop losses would be terrible, it has a very ugly potential of a lot of civilian casualties.

And the generals usually DO have some mind-control powers. Jadeite as an example. So it won't be as simple as sending tanks against the high-level monsters.
Here. That justifies the use of magical girls. They are the only force that could counteract brainwashing and other similar effects. Without them you're, figuratively speaking, forced to use a bayonet charge against a force consisting of combat helicopters.

[Mitchell]

Well to be fair that's only true at first before people learn how to block USING tech (and I believe its possible.) However yeah, after the first friendly fire incident people are going to be really wary giving a military strike team the kinds of hardware that is required to fight monsters, especially ones in the city or highly populated parts.

Which is unfair to the well trained millitary guys trying to do their best, but dealing with the fact that at ANY MOMENT you could be made a puppet to some assholes will. How do you handle it?

[Comartemis]

With all due respect to our boys in the uniforms, this is not a story about them and they do not matter except in how they can support the people who do matter, which is the girls who've been called up to fight evil in the name of Love and Justice. That's it, we decided on that dozens of pages ago and it's set in stone now. The best the military can reliably do in an offensive manner is handle the lowest-tier mook monsters, which are just about the only thing you can kill with standard-issue bullets. There is also no way to reliably change this situation in the immediate future.

We are not writing a story about the military coming up with ways to fight the Dark Kingdom. If you want to read a story like that, go look up The Salvation War. You wanna read a story about magical girls teaming up and kicking ass, then strap in and hang on to something.

[Pale Wolf]

With all due respect to our boys in the uniforms, this is not a story about them and they do not matter except in how they can support the people who do matter,

Why is it that every time someone says 'with all due respect', they really mean 'and no respect whatsoever is due'?

Though, this basically sums up in a sentence why I'm going to do my own take instead of touching the thread.

Frankly, it seems like your opinion of everyone other than the protagonists is 'Shut up! Your place is to stand there and be protected'. If that's your thing, hell, fine, enjoy it.

It's not mine, personally - I find it somewhat disturbing to deny the majority of the world from having any control of their own fate, it almost looks like you want the world's population to be zombies that just blow with the winds of the plot, rather than real people with their own interests, desires, and capabilities (not the Madoka kind).

However, these are simply different tastes. That's your taste, hell, enjoy it.

But do not shut up people who are talking about anything other than your vision of it. This is an idea thread. That means people discuss the idea. Maybe they even ponder taking it in a direction other than the way the originating thread went. So what? It's about the idea, not just pimping the Spacebattles thread.

You're not writing a story about that. Maybe Mitchell is. Maybe Mitchell just had a thought relevant to the idea. Either way, this thread has a lot more potential than everyone simply saying 'oh wow, this is awesome'. If he wants to post a relevant thought, you don't get to say 'no, shut up' and close down ideas.

[Mitchell]

Lets be honest here. Even if you focuses completely on the magical girls, at least tertiary interest HAS to be paid to the other parties such as the Government, The various Military organizations, Para Militarily organizations, Intelligence Agencies and so on. You NEED them, if only to give a backdrop. Reading up about Sailor Moon making friends with 'Other Magical Girl Here' is great, but its only a set up arc. Great all the magical girls have joined together in one organization. Now what?

Is that it? Are you going to end the story there? If so its a bit of a waste. A backdrop is needed. Maybe you have one or two of the enemies join together or making a certain truce or SOMETHING. However suddenly you have all kinds of problems. Focusing exclusively on the magical girl side is going to be a bit of a waste, they are not the only people going to be affected by this. You have Families, Friends, Teachers etc. Even if they don't know the magical girl identity, but the emergence of a magical girl alliance is going to give a lot of momentum in school yards, classes debating it etc. And then you have things separated from that, parents possibly being let on, news casters, sharks wanting to use this for profit, people trying to help and doing it badly etc etc. The millitary is going to be a prime example because as Pale_Wolf mentioned, they are going to be trying to do their job.

Even if your not going to focus on them and just use a couple lines (Though really the military trying and maybe failing badly to fight a powerful (General or so) class opponent and the mind raping friendly fire incidents should be a massive chapter or such. That's got huge repercussions politically) things liek that make or break the background of a story.

[Comartemis]

Lets be honest here. Even if you focuses completely on the magical girls, at least tertiary interest HAS to be paid to the other parties such as the Government, The various Military organizations, Para Militarily organizations, Intelligence Agencies and so on. You NEED them, if only to give a backdrop. Reading up about Sailor Moon making friends with 'Other Magical Girl Here' is great, but its only a set up arc. Great all the magical girls have joined together in one organization. Now what?

Is that it? Are you going to end the story there? If so its a bit of a waste. A backdrop is needed. Maybe you have one or two of the enemies join together or making a certain truce or SOMETHING. However suddenly you have all kinds of problems. Focusing exclusively on the magical girl side is going to be a bit of a waste, they are not the only people going to be affected by this. You have Families, Friends, Teachers etc. Even if they don't know the magical girl identity, but the emergence of a magical girl alliance is going to give a lot of momentum in school yards, classes debating it etc. And then you have things separated from that, parents possibly being let on, news casters, sharks wanting to use this for profit, people trying to help and doing it badly etc etc. The millitary is going to be a prime example because as Pale_Wolf mentioned, they are going to be trying to do their job.

Even if your not going to focus on them and just use a couple lines (Though really the military trying and maybe failing badly to fight a powerful (General or so) class opponent and the mind raping friendly fire incidents should be a massive chapter or such. That's got huge repercussions politically) things liek that make or break the background of a story.

The entire point of magical girls existing in the first place is the idea that they're the only ones who can stop the bad guys. The police can't do it, the military can't do it, the governments can't do it, NOBODY can do it except the girl who just got the transformation trinket, and that should not change just because said governments know about the bad guy now because it makes the whole genre into one giant idiot plot.

The military can help with a lot of things. They can evacuate civilians, they can provide training and logistics and transportation and some amount of intelligence. They can do a lot of things to help they just can't do anything to directly stop bad guys above the level of meat shield mooks (which typically come by the thousands during major invasions) because it renders the magical girls completely redundant and the idea of them helping out with their various battles becomes pointless because the JSDF can step in like some great big Marty Stu of one million+ people and solve all their problems for them. Magic is required just to hurt monsters at higher levels because some of them have mazoku-like qualities of having one foot into the astral plane or wherever and you're shooting at a shell that they don't actually need to live.

As for the rest, government/military/religious responses are due for examination in the second arc once everyone's gotten the idea into their heads that no, this isn't some elaborate hoax being perpetuated by unnaturally well-funded otaku. Until then we're still operating more or less exclusively in the meet and greet phase

[Pale Wolf]

It's nice that you have an excuse now. It's just that I, very clearly, recall you holding the same opinion when the mooks have magic - I recall paragraph-level rants against the concept of TSAB general staff being even capable of taking on the mooks.

Oh, and Homura proves you wrong, as far as Madoka enemies go - mostly-mundane small arms are effective and useful, up to and including 'boss-tier' enemies.

You're right to a certain extent, of course - the military can't be capable of resolving the whole situation in an acceptable manner, because the story is mostly about the magical girls.

But to say they don't matter is insulting, reveals your true feelings, and - the point I took issue with - shuts down discussion that is highly relevant to the idea. They will be looking for ways. And they will fight battles that they can't or shouldn't, to protect those children. To call them irrelevant is outright insulting.

[Comartemis]

It's nice that you have an excuse now. It's just that I, very clearly, recall you holding the same opinion when the mooks have magic - I recall paragraph-level rants against the concept of TSAB general staff being even capable of taking on the mooks.

Then you recall a conversation that I don't and which most likely relates to a completely different story idea, because pitting TSAB mooks against youma and such has never been on the agenda at any point in this story.

Oh, and Homura proves you wrong, as far as Madoka enemies go - mostly-mundane small arms are effective and useful, up to and including 'boss-tier' enemies.

That's fine for Witches at least, but we have dozens of different types of monsters with varying levels of resistance to magical and mundane firepower.

They will be looking for ways.

They can look all they like, they will find no ways that don't involve using magic and magical girls. And seeing as how we're using Nanoha canon, Earth has a dismally small magical population outside the magical girls, so one is basically equivalent to the other.

To call them irrelevant is outright insulting.

Ask me if I care about the feelings of fictional people who aren't the main characters. We had this discussion dozens of pages ago and we decided that this was how we were going to do things. I'm not having a repeat of that discussion with you when the degree to which the military is useful has already been decided on, and by the people who are actually participating in the thread no less.

[Pale Wolf]

The value has been decided upon for that one, individual, take on the idea.

If you're not going to have this discussion, then don't have it. But, at the same time?

Don't come in here shouting people down because they start discussing things that aren't to your taste.

Idea thread. Mitchell and the others can take it in any direction they like. You don't like that direction, or want to use it for the main thread?

Then don't.

Mitchell, and whoever else, can discuss the idea and take it in whatever independent direction they want to, outside the Spacebattles thread.


Oh, for clarification.

Then you recall a conversation that I don't and which most likely relates to a completely different story idea, because pitting TSAB mooks against youma and such has never been on the agenda at any point in this story.

This was regarding your 'fix Nanoha' thread. And was not related to this story idea, I'm merely taking it as a sample of your tastes.

[Comartemis]

Your pitiful attempt at thread-jacking amuses me. If you and Mitchell want to discuss your own ideas, then make separate threads for them. We're talking Battle Fantasia here, not whatever it is you came up with.

This was regarding your 'fix Nanoha' thread. And was not related to this story idea, I'm merely taking it as a sample of your tastes.

Are you people EVER going to let me fucking forget about that piece of crap?

[Pale Wolf]

Your pitiful attempt at thread-jacking amuses me. If you and Mitchell want to discuss your own ideas, then make separate threads for them. We're talking Battle Fantasia here, not whatever it is you came up with.

Comartemis. Look where you posted this.

It's in Ideas.

Not Outlines and Scenes, which is the 'help me with my fic' forum.

Not Fic C&C, which is the 'look at my fic, isn't it awesome?' forum.

Ideas - the 'hey, here's an idea, let's discuss what comes up and if it goes in dozens of different directions, that just means dozens of potential fics born from it' forum.

I'll split it off if you want. Move the 'pimp my thread' stuff over to Fic C&C, keep the idea discussion here.

Otherwise, this is an idea thread. Not a 'pimp my fic' thread. Which would make you the threadjacker, amusingly enough.

Are you people EVER going to let me fucking forget about that piece of crap?

Sorry, the internet has a long memory.

[Mitchell]

But...you just posted from the main thread a power level chart that very blatantly mentioned enemies that appear that CAN be taken out with military hardware. The fact that the military is not going to succeed is entirely secondary to the fact that a military organization is NOT going to be sitting on their asses while LITTLE GIRLS go fight battles that potentially have blocks worth of damage.

Even if your not going to give them even lip service to just IGNORE them in an IDEA thread when they might be playing the potential part of rival 'good guy' because they are honesty trying to fight the monsters just not doing good at all or even 'potential obstacle' in that they want to fight even though the general doesn't really care about them and just mows them down IS insulting.

Your crafting a WORLD here and despite how SPECIAL they are these magical girls are not the entirety of the world. There are going to be actions that they don't like because otherwise they cease to be protectors and become tyrants.

I mean even if you focus exclusively from the POV of the magical girl's themselves, at least ONE of them would be at least smart enough to turn on a tv and here the huge scene commentators and the military are making about the possibility that the countries children are fighting and dieing with nobody to remember what they accomplished.

Great you decided the military is not going to suddenly find magic. That's great, a universal law for your fic. However suddenly that doesn't matter. The military does not know this law, and even if the people from TSAB came down and told them, would they believe it? IT seems so much a cry of 'stay in the kitchen and let the REAL warriors fight for your planet and souls' that I cannot imagine most people told that would actually believe it.

Also while the 'magical' power was low on earth, remember that you have Sailor Moon in there, which has Rei who has defeated or at least harmed Monsters with her Ofada. How does spiritual power play a part in this wonderful power landscape? Does the TSAB detect and know about it?

Even if there is a ludicrously small amount of magical power on earth I still think SOMEBODY trying to hunt acting military personal who have that to create one kind of mega team would be an event.

Let me be clear here. I'm not suggesting the Military are the REAL hero's here, or the ones who can do a thousand times more than the magical girl. What I'm saying is you have to work out details for characters and how they are going to react to global events. Static charecters who don't react to the sudden highlighting global threats make a boring backdrops and subtract from the greatness of the idea itself.

I'm going to be honest here, I think the magical girls would be the hero's and portrayed, realistically, much more competently than they usually are in the genre after a couple years of doing so. I also think that creating a realistic background where evne though the magical girls are friends, not everybody on earth is in universal favor of the 'magical girl solution' is both realistic and highly likely.

There are big protests and demonstrations when one of the military in the first world dies or goes to war and these people are all over the age of majority. How are people going to react to a 14-16 year old girl possibly doing so or having died in the past?

[Comartemis]

Ideas - the 'hey, here's an idea, let's discuss what comes up and if it goes in dozens of different directions, that just means dozens of potential fics born from it' forum.

I've posted more than enough ideas here to know exactly how this forum works mister moderator, and Mod status does not give you the privilege of rewriting the purpose of a board to suit your needs. This is the "Hey, here's an idea, let's refine it and polish it until it shines" forum.

But...you just posted from the main thread a power level chart that very blatantly mentioned enemies that appear that CAN be taken out with military hardware.

This is true. But we are talking something like 10-15% of the total power a bad guy faction can bring to bear being vulnerable to mundane weapons, not counting the Witches (and I suspect even Homura's guns are magically-enhanced to some extent, so that may not be completely true either.

There are big protests and demonstrations when one of the military in the first world dies or goes to war and these people are all over the age of majority. How are people going to react to a 14-16 year old girl possibly doing so or having died in the past?

I don't know where I gave you the idea that the military is absolutely irrelevant in every possible way (logistics and support and stuff, remember that? It was like two posts ago), but it's not. As for how the world reacts, we're still working on that. For the time being the reaction is "nice special effects", it hasn't sunk in yet that this is really real and not some kind of publicity stunt.

[Pale Wolf]

This is the "Hey, here's an idea, let's refine it and polish it until it shines" forum.

Yes, which includes discussion of the idea.

The only actual discussion of the idea in this thread, you have responded to with 'no, shut up, we've decided already'.

If you've decided already, and have an actual fic in the works, then that's Fic C&C. Ideas is specifically for discussion of the idea. Okay, so you don't require the fruits of that discussion? Next writer to feel a twitch in their muse on looking at this thread might.

I'll be blunt. I'm not going to abuse my status as forum moderator. I will take no moderation action in this thread other than that which is directly requested of me. I'm involved, that would be... inappropriate. I do not appreciate the aspersions you cast regarding my character.

However, the other, uninvolved forum moderators and admins have been informed, and will be taking a look from a neutral, rules-based perspective. We'll see what happens from there. Heck, maybe I'm the one who'll get shot down.

I will, again, extend my offer. There is enough of your take on Battle Fantasia written that it's perfectly suitable for Fic C&C, which is exactly what you're looking for here - comments and discussion not on the basic idea, but on your particular take on it.

If you ask, I will split the thread, moving what you want to Fic C&C, and keeping the idea discussion here.

I do believe this is a fair solution that should be satisfactory to all parties - forum rules are obeyed, you get a thread devoted explicitly to your take on the idea, and Mitchell and whoever else gets an interest gets a thread devoted to discussing the idea as they see fit.

If it's not satisfactory, I'd like to know why, that a satisfactory solution can be arranged.