Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

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Postby Yrael » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:51 pm

Jupiah wrote:So, Chapter 404.

"Tobi" finally reveals his true identity to Kisame simply by showing him his face (so Kisame somehow recognizes Madara? Just how old is Kisame anyway? Why won't they show us his face?)


With the way we're never shown his face, I'm beginning to buy into the Madara = Obito theroy. Especially since the mask matches up (the covered eye matches which one would have been given to Kakashi).

Regardless of whether that's true to not, at the very least we know that Madara is someone we already know, otherwise there'd be no reason to not show his face even after we know who he is.
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Postby Jupiah » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:43 pm

Yrael wrote:With the way we're never shown his face, I'm beginning to buy into the Madara = Obito theroy. Especially since the mask matches up (the covered eye matches which one would have been given to Kakashi).

If Madara is Obito, then why would Kisame recognize Obito's face, and why would he immediately associate it with Madara? I don't buy into the Tobito theory myself, it's just too full of holes.

Why the heck would Madara steal a crippled, dying kid's body if he wanted to use Orochimaru's immortality jutsu? There were still plenty of other Uchiha's around at the time, if he had to have a Sharingan. Not to mention that the immortality jutsu only lasts for 3 years, and then the user must steal another body. Obito died what, 10-15 years ago? Unless Madara has improved the jutsu or invented his own superior version, he wouldn't still have Obito's body now even if he had stolen it.
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Postby Reika » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:53 pm

the one scanlation I read of chap 404 has kisame calling madara "mizukage"... am I the only one to have read that then madara reveal his face to kisame ? must be several versions of the scanlations then (mine was found on mangafox.com)

not much but still another piece of the puzzle (mostly in reference of zabuza past with the mizukage....)
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Postby KonokoHasano » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:19 pm

Um... Jupiah, Kisami didn't know that Madara and Tobi were the same people. 'Tobi' acts completely different than Madara, and 'Tobi' had never shown his face to Kisame. It has nothing to do the whole 'Obito and Tobi' thing.

As Madara said... 'You ended up being the last to know... You were close to me, so I'm sorry for deceiving you.'

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... 312/01.jpg

Kisame was surprised that Madara was Tobi.

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... 312/02.jpg

There's still the question of why they don't show Madara's face when we've seen it in flashbacks, but eh. As of right now, many things are possible.
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Postby claymade » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:07 pm

This series just got 400% more cliched!

*chuckles* Well, strictly speaking, any cliche inherent in that turn of events I counted as applying way back when Jiraiya said the same thing as he was dying...

Why the heck would Madara steal a crippled, dying kid's body if he wanted to use Orochimaru's immortality jutsu? There were still plenty of other Uchiha's around at the time, if he had to have a Sharingan. Not to mention that the immortality jutsu only lasts for 3 years, and then the user must steal another body. Obito died what, 10-15 years ago? Unless Madara has improved the jutsu or invented his own superior version, he wouldn't still have Obito's body now even if he had stolen it.

The former I can't say, but I could easily imagine an as-of-yet unknown ulterior circumstances intervening to force the choice.

As for the latter, I always interpreted Orochimaru's degeneration to be a lingering, continuous effect of the Third Lord's curse. Is it ever stated that there's an inherent three-year limit to the jutsu?

Consider: Orochimaru had already performed the jutsu once before the start of the series. Given that there is unquestionably a similar time limit before the jutsu can be used again--and he was planning to take Sasuke's body right away, that means he should have been similarly incapacitated during part one, if there were an inherent time limit.

Regardless of whether that's true to not, at the very least we know that Madara is someone we already know, otherwise there'd be no reason to not show his face even after we know who he is.

Well, strictly speaking, he could be someone we will meet at some point between now and when his face is actually revealed.

But I agree with you, it probably is someone we've seen already. And yes, Obito is certainly the front-runner at this point.

(And, if that's the case, it's probably also a no-brainer who's going to have to take on Madara in the end.)

Finally, why the hell is Sasuke accepting Madara's help?! Madara helped murder his freakin' family! He should be trying to kill Madara almost as desperately as he did Itachi!

Well, the fact that he changed his feeling over the death of his brother indicates that he has some degree of sympathy for why Itachi did what he did. Turn it around the other way--he shouldn't feel much worse about Madara than he currently does about his brother.

---

I also found it interesting in the previous chapter how Madara's snide comment about how Itachi's failsafes "only got as far as the 'fail' part" turned out to be, in fact, rather premature--as Sasuke wasn't the only one he gave part of his power to. Any bets on what he left for Naruto?

Myself, I'm guessing it'll take the form of some kind of genjutsu resistance, since A) that's Naruto's biggest gaping weak spot right now, B) Itachi had, himself, observed this in the Rescue Gaara arc, and most importantly C) it'll be a rather un-cinematic fight if the two of them have to do it all without ever looking each other in the eye.
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Postby Yrael » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:47 pm

I know it's petty (and no chance in hell of it happening), but I really, really, really hope the eight-tail's host kicks Sasuke's ass in the next volume.
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Postby claymade » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:54 am

Yrael wrote:I know it's petty (and no chance in hell of it happening), but I really, really, really hope the eight-tail's host kicks Sasuke's ass in the next volume.

Yeah, doubtful. Even aside from the fact that I can't see this plotline dead-ending here, Kishimoto seems to be obviously building up momentum to an epic final duel between Naruto and Sasuke. I can't for the life of me imagine that he'll do anything to sacrifice said epic-ness of the antagonist 'till that actually comes about.

Really, it'd be like showing Vegeta getting his ass kicked by Frieza while on his way to earth to fight Goku for the first time. Sure, you can have something like it happen after, but not before. Doing otherwise risks a backslide to Sasuke's earlier, rivalry-inhibiting "pwned by Naruto" state--which he did his whole defection to try and recover from.

No, this is more likely just a trial run to familiarize the audience with the true power of the perfected Sharingan (and the nuances of Sasuke's manifestation of it) neither of which we've really seen in action yet. Basically, your standard: "Oh noes! He took down the eight-tailed jinchuriki so easily! How can Naruto possibly hope to win with only one more tail?!?"
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Postby KonokoHasano » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:07 am

I just hope the eight-tails doesn't go down in a one-two combo. There's no real point in building that up only to just screw everyone over.
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Postby pspinler » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Is it just me, or does anyone else find how Kishi portrays the character of Naruto extremely annoying? I mean, I feel like I'm watching an old warner bro's. cartoon with the character of the dumb hick. Any moment, I expect Naruto to burst out "A yup. A yup. Hyuk."

This may be unjust on my part, but it almost feels like Kishi is using an american stereotype here -- the idiotic, obnoxious, oblivious blond. That's v. the japanese stereotype, the kick ass cool and subtle one, who, btw, has his power due to genetic superiority.

Bah.
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Postby claymade » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:51 pm

pspinler wrote:Is it just me, or does anyone else find how Kishi portrays the character of Naruto extremely annoying? I mean, I feel like I'm watching an old warner bro's. cartoon with the character of the dumb hick. Any moment, I expect Naruto to burst out "A yup. A yup. Hyuk."

This may be unjust on my part, but it almost feels like Kishi is using an american stereotype here -- the idiotic, obnoxious, oblivious blond. That's v. the japanese stereotype, the kick ass cool and subtle one, who, btw, has his power due to genetic superiority.

I don't really think it's so much an "American" stereotype so much as the stereotype of "the shonen manga male lead--period."

I mean--just off the top of my head!--you've got Recca from Flame of Recca, Beet from Beet the Vandel Buster, Zatch from Zatch Bell, Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho, Monkey D. Luffy from One Piece, and of course, Goku from Dragonball.

It's like a freaking law in shonen manga. One of the leads--usually the main one--has to be the loudmouthed, earnest, obnoxious, not overly bright kid with next to no sense of tact (often prone to shouting the Official Series Goal at the top of his lungs, if the series has one) who is usually the scrappy underdog but who manages to bulldoze through "really ought to be impossible" odds on sheer stubborness and the Strength of His Convictions. (As well as the Secret Power that they somehow have access to.)

(And yes, they are almost universally paired with a rival counterpart/supporting hero who skews to the opposite end--quiet, somber, cynical, but who nevertheless gets transformed by the Power of Friendship into seeing things more like the main hero. See: Tokiya, Slade, Kiyo, Hiei, Zolo, Piccolo/Vegeta.)

Anyway, I'm probably partly biased since, not only was I expecting the character type going into it, but I was reading One Piece intensively before I ever started reading Naruto--and the lead in that one makes Naruto look like a freaking philosopher.

So for me personally, the sensation was--quite honestly--one of relief. "Oh, it's so nice to have a main character now who isn't such a numbskull."
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Postby CRBWildcat » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:25 am

KonokoHasano wrote:I just hope the eight-tails doesn't go down in a one-two combo. There's no real point in building that up only to just screw everyone over.


...After viewing the latest chapter, I highly doubt that's going to happen. I mean, look at him---the guy's a ninja/swordsman/rapper. With a combination like that, you know something's up.
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Postby pspinler » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:26 pm

I have to agree, I enjoyed this last chapter. The 8 tails character is pretty cool. Anyone who stops a fight in the middle in order to jot down some new lyrics is a win in my book. :-)

Unfortunately, it's still an almost forgone conclusion that Sasuke will win in the end. Protagonist character v. recently introduced unnamed one-off, and all. Plot wouldn't move forward otherwise. Too damn bad, he's one of the neater chars.

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Postby Jupiah » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:31 pm

Heh, I'd love to introduce Roronoa Zoro to the 8-tails and watch his reaction!

As interesting as the 8-tail's fighting style is, I have to wonder how he's even capable of moving while wielding seven swords. He has to keep his arms clamped down and his elbows and knee bent just to hold them... how the heck can his sword's paths be "unreadable" with such drastic movement limitations?

Considering his goofy personality, I get the feeling that his techniques are going to keep getting even weirder as this fight progresses.
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Postby pspinler » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:22 pm

Jupiah wrote:I have to wonder how he's even capable of moving while wielding seven swords. He has to keep his arms clamped down and his elbows and knee bent just to hold them... how the heck can his sword's paths be "unreadable" with such drastic movement limitations?


pspinler slaps Jupiah with the 'it's manga, stop thinking so much' bat.

Compared to some of the other plot holes and mary sharganism in Naruto, I'd not choose to pick on the 8 tails in particular.

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Postby CRBWildcat » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:47 pm

Besides, even if he doesn't last too long, he's cool---that much we can agree on. Let's just enjoy him while he lasts, even if it's only for another chapter or two.
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