Temple of Ranma's Sailor Senshi Seifuku

Lack of logic alert!

You say this as if it's not a perfectly acceptable outcome.

For you, maybe.

But please, for once in your life, stop talking like you're the sole arbiter of everything.

If the ending is an insult to the rest of the series, then I feel - as do, clearly, the creators and the majority of the people who actually bothered to watch the show - that the ending itself makes it obvious. 'This was bullshit. You're stupid for having liked it. These characters aren't going through anything, they're puppets dancing on the ends of our strings for your entertainment.'

If you wanna watch your dolls get everything perfect, feel free to write it. I'd prefer to watch characters I can at least pretend are people acting on what they believe in.

If the ending is an insult to the rest of the series, then I feel - as do, clearly, the creators and the majority of the people who actually bothered to watch the show - that the ending itself makes it obvious. 'This was bullshit. You're stupid for having liked it. These characters aren't going through anything, they're puppets dancing on the ends of our strings for your entertainment.'

I read the manga, so you can stop insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about any time now.

Also you're talking about a series whose whole entertainment value is derived from "Let's torture these characters and watch them squirm", so you'll have to excuse me for not thinking it was ever entertaining to begin with. If you honestly find the psychological and emotional torture of little girls to be anything other than utterly revolting, then to quote a childhood hero of mine, "you are a sad and strange little man and you have my pity."

If you honestly find the psychological and emotional torture of little girls to be anything other than utterly revolting, then to quote a childhood hero of mine, "you are a sad and strange little man and you have my pity."

You do know that its a story, right? Right? If you can't differentiate reality from a story, you might want to see a professional about that.

Or are you telling me that every story that doesn't have a perfect ending to suffering characters is just revolting?

Of course, you've always taken the stance that anyone disagreeing with you is either morally corrupt or stupid, so this response is fairly typical of you.

mondu_the_fat wrote:You do know that its a story, right? Right?

I know. I also empathize with the characters enough -- something I'll admit Urobuchi does well, he at least tortures his characters with great skill -- that I don't care.

Or are you telling me that every story that doesn't have a perfect ending to suffering characters is just revolting?

My personal opinion of tragedy in general is that it has all the entertainment value of your average snuff film. Is that clear enough?

mondu_the_fat wrote:You do know that its a story, right? Right? If you can't differentiate reality from a story, you might want to see a professional about that.

I have never watched Silence of the Lambs, nor will I; nor shall I have anything to do with Evangelion. If the characters don't make me feel they're real, the story isn't worth it. If they do make me feel they're real, seeing innocents trampled and tortured bothers me a LOT. (I still think "The Killing Joke" is the most foul and obscene thing DC comics has ever done.)

If the writer can't make the story seem real, s/he's not much of a writer, If they can make it seem real, when reality is optional (as in fiction) I'll have nothing to do with a reality that bores or disgusts me. I take my fiction seriously.

I read the manga, so you can stop insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about any time now.

I will point out A: that I said 'the majority', leaving you plenty of room for your soapbox, and B: that if you were complaining about it without watching it, this would be far from the first time.

Also you're talking about a series whose whole entertainment value is derived from "Let's torture these characters and watch them squirm", so you'll have to excuse me for not thinking it was ever entertaining to begin with. If you honestly find the psychological and emotional torture of little girls to be anything other than utterly revolting, then to quote a childhood hero of mine, "you are a sad and strange little man and you have my pity."

It ain't about them being tormented.

It's about bad things happening and them being able to pull through it.

Without the events that you hate so much, there'd be none of the characters that you purport to love. Like it or not, those events are what defined them.

And I dunno, but it seems like your viewpoint is even more negative. The way Madoka's run is 'shit happens, but things can get better, there is hope... it ain't gonna turn out perfect, but there is a result we can live with'. While your viewpoint seems to be 'if shit happens and it doesn't turn out perfect, there's no possible hope for even living with the result'.



Side note: The conversation above looks a little familiar. Let me just see...

Comartemis wrote:Maybe you should make a greater distinction between fantasy and reality then.

Huh. Seems a little reversed from where it was last time.

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:I have never watched Silence of the Lambs, nor will I; nor shall I have anything to do with Evangelion. If the characters don't make me feel they're real, the story isn't worth it. If they do make me feel they're real, seeing innocents trampled and tortured bothers me a LOT. (I still think "The Killing Joke" is the most foul and obscene thing DC comics has ever done.)

But do you think that someone who liked Silence of the Lambs or Evangelions (or PMMM) as "a sad and strange little man and you have my pity"?

If the writer can't make the story seem real, s/he's not much of a writer, If they can make it seem real, when reality is optional (as in fiction) I'll have nothing to do with a reality that bores or disgusts me. I take my fiction seriously.

Its one thing to dislike one genre/style/whatever, its another to think that people who like things (particularly, _fictional_ things) that you don't like as scum.

Pale Wolf wrote:It ain't about them being tormented.

It's about bad things happening and them being able to pull through it.

Yeah, just like Sayaka and Homura did. Oh wait!

Without the events that you hate so much, there'd be none of the characters that you purport to love. Like it or not, those events are what defined them.

Sorry, no. Their default states were interesting to begin with. Mami's entire history was her backstory and two episodes and then OMNOMNOM, but I liked her before I even knew anything about her, back when all I had to go on for her character was danbooru's opinion of her ("Mami is GAR!") and a whole lot of UNLIMITED RIFLE WORKS images. If the director ever got it into his head to lift the whole cast up and drop them in a normal magical girl series I'd devour that series with the same devotion that I used to follow Nanoha with. Seems likely I'm going to have to settle for that slice of life series that's being talked about, but that's a lot better than nothing.

And I dunno, but it seems like your viewpoint is even more negative. The way Madoka's run is 'shit happens, but things can get better, there is hope... it ain't gonna turn out perfect, but there is a result we can live with'. While your viewpoint seems to be 'if shit happens and it doesn't turn out perfect, there's no possible hope for even living with the result'.

No, actually Madoka's way is "it only turns out even remotely alright if you have a cosmic cheat code".

Side note: The conversation above looks a little familiar. Let me just see...

Huh. Seems a little reversed from where it was last time.

Last time the discussion was in regard to faceless and nameless government/military peons and their nonexistent role in a story about magical girls being somehow reflective of my views of real-life military and police officers. This is just about characters I actually give a damn about being psychologically tortured to death and not getting properly compensated for it. If you're trying to say that I'm a hypocrite, you need to TRY HARDER.

Incidentally, now I'm thinking about that conversation again, next time you talk to Sunny tell him that I think he has a really screwy idea of what constitutes an insult.

Of course, you've always taken the stance that anyone disagreeing with you is either morally corrupt or stupid, so this response is fairly typical of you.

You've obviously only ever been paying attention when the subject was Spok's political views, but I try not to bother him too much about those because I have the same views regarding George Bush Jr. Nice ninja edit, by the way.

Comartemis wrote:No, actually Madoka's way is "it only turns out even remotely alright if you have a cosmic cheat code".

Actually, Madoka's way -- as I see it -- is: we can do better than this. It's not some deus ex machina that could have resolved everyone's woes if she had only put more thought into it, and it was never meant to be one. What she did was more like going into a regular game menu and switching the difficulty from hard mode to normal mode. Because, generally, cheat codes usually offer something more promising and "rewarding" (depending on how you define what is rewarding), and don't require any sacrifice.

Anyway, it'd be useless for me to say anything more on that score, so that's the last that I'll say on the matter. People are very diverse in their perceptions and beliefs, so I'll never (hopefully; I'm not perfect) fault someone for not liking something that I happen to like, or even when they give it proper criticism. When it comes to those who are prejudiced, however, I try to limit my participation because prejudiced people tend to hold onto their opinion to the point of being irrational, unreasonable and illogical. They may even present their opinion as if they're completely right, despite clear evidence to the contrary. It'd be one thing if it's to convince yourself of what you think, but to convince others that there's something wrong with it simply because there's a difference in taste within some medium of entertainment?

I never could understand that. I mean, fictional characters fulfill a lot of things that are either unlikely or impossible for people to experience or witness in reality. For better or for worse, depending on what it is, it can also be an outlet, a proxy of sorts, for something that they can't do, or are (as of yet) unwilling to do, themselves. The desires, interests and curiosity of the human mind often go beyond what is possible or acceptable with one's body, reality, or the society/culture they happen to live in. For example, I feel a lot better knowing that there's someone watching a fictional character getting raped by a tentacle monster instead of spending that time in the pursuit of raping someone in reality.

And that's my last two cents. You don't like this series? Well, fine; it'd be silly to think that everyone would like it. Don't like tragic stories? It's not for everyone, of course. But a prejudiced view is neither a fair nor critical-thinking one, so I recommend leaving it at the door the next time the need to enter a discussion and share your opinion arises.

Comartemis wrote:You've obviously only ever been paying attention when the subject was Spok's political views, but I try not to bother him too much about those because I have the same views regarding George Bush Jr. Nice ninja edit, by the way.

Given that I have no idea what you or spoks views are on politics as I almost never go into the miscellaneous subforums other than the "pictures" thread, you're assuming that's basing my opinion of you on that.

Suuuure.




As for the series itself, I found the ending wanting.

That's an inherent problem when a wish-granting being is the antagonist of a story -- it leaves for a wish undoing everything, which is usually how it is resolved. I'm not too fond of that. It worked for Eye of Newton, but then eye of newton set it up (the devil made it clear that he _couldn't_ say no, and a contract already existed even before the wish was expressed; this is not the case in PMMM, where the contract was "signed" when the wish was made). When I saw that Kyuubey could grant wishes and that, in fact, he was the antagonist of the show, I made a bet with myself that the ending WON'T be Kyuubey saying "no" to a wish. The _worst_ ending that I forsaw was something along the lines of "I wish everything were back to normal (including herself)" with the last few scenes showing all of them leading normal, happy lives, maybe Kyuubey becoming a pet cat or something, with all logical loopholes and the protagonists forgetting everything as history itself gets a reboot (since this was a magic girl show, I half-expected them to retain their powers instead of just leading normal lives). That's usually how many stories with wish-granting antagonists end. While I'm glad PMMM didn't end that way, I would have still have preferred an ending where the wish wasn't used to retroactively fix things (more or less).

Given that I have no idea what you or spoks views are on politics as I almost never go into the miscellaneous subforums other than the "pictures" thread, you're assuming that's basing my opinion of you on that.

Suuuure.

Then you're going to have to job my memory, because it's been a year or two since I was last hanging out around here with any kind of dedication and I can't be bothered to remember arguments from last week much less two years ago.

Jog his memory, actually.

Maybe he meant 'jab'.

Fools, all of you. I obviously meant Jabberwocky.