Questioning Ranma's Honor

[claymade]

http://www.furinkan.com/takahashi/takahashi7.html is where you can find that particular interview.

Note that the cultural concepts she refers to are not "concepts of giri, nijo, gimu, etc... since she considered knowledge on them to be important to enjoying Ranma", but rather "Japanese daily life such as festivals and the traditional New Year's holiday."

Your looking at it from a non-japanese point of view. Giri demands Ranma not to tell Akane the secret and to prevent her from finding out he is p-chan. Ninjo forces him to give clues but subtly, he can't straight out tell or show her and has to do everything he can to prevent her from finding out.

So he feels he can give hints, but he also feels that if she ever started to follow up on those hints, he'd have to do everything he can to stop her from doing so? That makes no sense. He's obviously not doing "everything he can to prevent her from finding out" if he's giving her clues.

You can't simply assert that Ranma wants Ryouga's secret to be revealed, but is only bound by his promise. Heck, he's "broken his promise" before, showing Ryouga's curse to Akari in her arc.

It's not concern for his promise that keeps him from telling Akane. It's concern for Ryouga.

[lwf58]

A point that no one has mentioned yet is the fact that Ranma never promised anything to Ryouga. He made that particular promise to the neighbor's dog, thinking it was Ryouga. But when he was told the truth, he did not repeat it.

So, taking that into consideration, the idea that Ranma is honor-bound not to reveal Ryouga's curse is fanon. His actions stem from both pity, and his own personal desire not to take advantage of that particular weakness. He feels guilty about it.

So he does give Akane and everyone else hints in the insults he uses, giving them a chance to figure it out for themselves, since he's definitely not happy about the way Ryouga abuses Akane's trust of her "pet". But if the curse is about to be revealed by accident, he acts to prevent it. The difference is that he seems to feel that it would be okay for Akane to discover the curse on her own merit, but not by an act of random chance.

Plus, it would probably be okay if someone else told her. But none of the other people who know Ryouga's secret ever do, for reasons that are never explained clearly. For example, Soun's motivation for not telling his daughter she's sleeping with a transformed boy is murky, although it's assumed in fanon that he hopes it will make Ranma jealous enough to go along with his and Genma's schemes to hook them up.

Regarding the promise to the dog... That one he does keep. As far as I know, he never once tells anyone that the dog has a nonexistent Jusenkyou curse.

[ToastedPine]

since he's definitely not happy about the way Ryouga abuses Akane's trust of her "pet".

Is it really because of trust? The same actions could easily be justified for less moral and more emotional reasons like jealousy or the selfishness of someone who doesn't like to share. I'm not saying this reading is canon, just that there are heavy implications when ideas of trust come into play, that while not necessarily bad, do shape character interaction in fics .

Thanks Claymade and Larry. This has cleared a lot of things up. The use of honor in Ranma seems more readership hype than actuality. You'd think Samurai were walking around Japan the way some fics go on about it. Ranma grew up on the road, he regularly did things like fight Ukyo for food in ways that demeaned Ukyo as an opponent by sitting on her and stuff. It'd be difficult to believe that Ranma adheres to honor in any strict sense. Under that line, there's also the reading where Ranma is disassociated with Genma as much as possible, but I personally don't think the apple fell that far from the tree.

[Drawde]

Everyone also seems to forget that Ranma stole food while in China, at least three different time, which is all that was shown. He's run away from an actual seppuku ceremony, instead of trying to correct Nodoka's misunderstanding. And he's willing to lie to and cheat people to get a cure for his curse. Ranma can be quite "dishonorable" when he feels like it.

As far as revealing Ryoga's curse, I put that down to typical Takahashi plot twisting: change things to make a joke work. If Ranma trying to reveal the curse, but failing was funny, she'd go for it. And if he had to keep the secret for a joke to work, he would. But Akane could never actually learn about it, since that would ruin the running gag.

[antimatterenergy]

I wasn't going to comment on this but changed my mind and decided to make a few comments (don't really have the time for this now since I'm working over time and barely getting enough sleep).

Concepts of giri, ninjo, gimu, on, etc... are aspects of Japanese daily life more so than festivals and do occur in Ranma 1/2. Though you don't need to know them to enjoy the manga, just like you don't need to know that the french people are named after Japanese cleaning products.

Ranma is not all that honorable by Western standards since he does lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate people. As for Japanese standards I don't really know how honorable he is. A lot of Japanese standards are maintaining 'face' stealing and such is not dishonorable so long as your not caught.

Ranma follows giri. He does. That doesn't make him honorable in the way the western world see's honor. Giri is not the same as honor. They are the same in that they are both codes of conduct but there are major differences as well. It is not honorable to rape and kill civilians or for samurai to steal from the peasant class, but those do not go against giri.

the fact that Ranma never promised anything to Ryouga.

Whether the promise was to Ryoga directly doesn't really matter. Giri would still demand he keep it. Anyways Ryoga could have overheard it since he did come out and attack Ranma while in pig form moments later.

Giri demands Ranma not tell anyone about Ryoga's curse and hide it if he can from being revealed. Which is why he hides it from Akane. It would be in his best interest for her to know so that Ryoga can be blamed properly. He really shouldn't be giving any hints that he does could be considered ninjo i.e feels a need to do something but even that would be damaging of his personal honor. Anyone else could tell her and it wouldn't damage Ranma's honor also if she figured it out herself it wouldn't damage his honor (this is what Ranma seems to want).

You'd think Samurai were walking around Japan the way some fics go on about it.

The Samurai really weren't all that honorable by western standards. They did rape, steal, kill innocents, etc... The number one most important thing in Japanese honor is fealty to your lord and country. Giri isn't a moral code.

[ToastedPine]

Whether the promise was to Ryoga directly doesn't really matter. Giri would still demand he keep it. Anyways Ryoga could have overheard it since he did come out and attack Ranma while in pig form moments later.

No proof, no dice. In the Ryouga scenario, it's just as likely that Ranma thinks in terms of honor as it is that he goes by a loose moral code. Putting it another way, giri, if it truly exists in Ranma, very weakly constrains Ranma's actions. Your model works, but it's not the definitive model by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, I'm arguing specifically against the type of strict honor used in fics-- the one that forces his hand very roughly and definitely.

The Samurai really weren't all that honorable by western standards. They did rape, steal, kill innocents, etc... The number one most important thing in Japanese honor is fealty to your lord and country. Giri isn't a moral code.

Does giri state specifically that theft, rape, and the slaughtering of innocents is allowed? It doesn't matter, the context I used it under was to illustrate the general feel of certain honor based fics. If you understood what I meant enough to split hairs like this, then the comment has done its job.

[lwf58]

Ranma is not all that honorable by Western standards since he does lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate people. As for Japanese standards I don't really know how honorable he is. A lot of Japanese standards are maintaining 'face' stealing and such is not dishonorable so long as your not caught.

Ranma follows giri. He does. That doesn't make him honorable in the way the western world see's honor. Giri is not the same as honor. They are the same in that they are both codes of conduct but there are major differences as well. It is not honorable to rape and kill civilians or for samurai to steal from the peasant class, but those do not go against giri.

Even here, you're making a mistake that virtually all western fans of anime and manga do: you're assuming that "giri" means "honor". It doesn't.

Giri (義理) is a Japanese value roughly corresponding to "duty", "obligation", or even "burden of obligation" in English, but one with a far more pervasive influence on the Japanese world view and culture than its English equivalent. It is defined as "to serve one's superiors with a self-sacrificing devotion" by Namiko Abe.

In other words, giri is one's duty to one's superiors, be they parents, employers, or whatever. It has nothing to do with personal honor. In fact, much Japanese drama revolves around the conflict of giri versus one's personal feelings and morality.

Giri and gimu both translate as "social duty/obligation" in dictionaries. The distinction can be summed up as giri being one's own sense of obligation to do something, and gimu are obligations imposed from outside, such as "compulsory education" requiring one to attend school.

Ninjo, or "human feelings", are one's own desires, morality, or sense of personal worth. In Japan, such feelings are often seen as conflicting with social obligations, which are deemed to be of greater importance.

The classic example of ninjo is that of a samurai who falls in love with an unacceptable partner (perhaps somebody of low social class or somebody of an enemy clan). As a loyal member of his clan, he then becomes torn between the obligation to his feudal lord and to his personal feelings, with the only possible resolution being shinjū or double love-suicide. The correspondence to William Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet or the Aeneid would be made by Japanese and non-Japanese alike.

Looking at it that way, Ranma does not hold to giri very much. He attends school not because he feels he needs to (giri), but because he was told to by Genma (gimu). His reluctance to allow Ryouga's curse to be revealed accidentally is due to ninjo, his own feelings of guilt for having been directly involved in the curse being inflicted. Since Ryouga takes advantage of the curse to do things that are harmful to Ranma, and because those things are against the social mores of the elders around him, he is breaking both giri and gimu. Thus, Ranma has no giri or gimu to protect Ryouga. He does, however, have giri to reveal the secret, since he is living in someone else's home as a guest, and one of the members of the family is a victim of Ryouga's immoral actions. Thus, we have a conflict between giri and ninjo, the classic Japanese dramatic formula.

[ToastedPine]

Heh, that helped. Though, it occurs to me that it would be far easier and clearer to most people if we just did away with Giri, Gimu, and ninjo, and stuck to English equivalents. Sure there's the drawback of not getting the exact shade of meaning you want across, but considering most readers would confuse all three instead of getting more enjoyment out of the reading, I'd think it's a win-win solution.

[FriendlyEL]

Shampoo was blackmailing him with one of the most sensitive subjects possible for him and all the while finding it funny that he was soon to be homeless because of her

.

When did that happen? Blackmail?

Well, Shampoo was using the instant spring as a way to coerce Ranma into a date whether he wanted to or not, and the whole time seems well aware that the only reason he is dating her is to get it. Plus, she makes sure to make his life a living hell for helping against the dojo destroyer.

Homeless?

Okay, this I'll give you as I was thinking of a worst case senerio of what probably would happen should Akane have lost against the Dojo Destroyer. It is never really implied either way exactly what happens to a school should they loose to one, other than simply that they loose the right to teach or maybe even really publicly practice their school of martial arts. If that is the case, if teaching martial arts is their main source of income (not that it is as far as we know, but I doubt at the time Shampoo was aware of that) then loosing that right could get the Tendo's and Saotome's in some pretty deep trouble.

Not to mention that once she was aware of this whole situation she seemed quite amused in the notion.

Either way, this is an entirely different subject and would take this forum way off topic.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Trying to do without giri, gimu, and ninjo would lead to problems. It's sort of like using love as the sole translation for eros, philos, agape. Or, in a more-discussed matter of translation, thinking (say) that 'Little Washu' is a decent translation of 'Washu-chan'.

[three headed dog]

Looking at it that way, Ranma does not hold to giri very much. He attends school not because he feels he needs to (giri), but because he was told to by Genma (gimu). His reluctance to allow Ryouga's curse to be revealed accidentally is due to ninjo, his own feelings of guilt for having been directly involved in the curse being inflicted. Since Ryouga takes advantage of the curse to do things that are harmful to Ranma, and because those things are against the social mores of the elders around him, he is breaking both giri and gimu. Thus, Ranma has no giri or gimu to protect Ryouga. He does, however, have giri to reveal the secret, since he is living in someone else's home as a guest, and one of the members of the family is a victim of Ryouga's immoral actions. Thus, we have a conflict between giri and ninjo, the classic Japanese dramatic formula.

I disagree Ranma's reluctance to reveal Ryoga's curse is Gimu not ninjo. The reason I say that is because Ranma feels he owes a debt to Ryoga for cursing him and that would fall under Gimu. Really we appear to be using different sources for our definitions of giri and gimu.

Does anyone know of a good place to learn about giri, gimu, etc..? I've looked at various sources on the net including http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... lCharacter (which states Ranma made the promise because of gimu and is keeping it because of giri), Wikipedia, http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa071497.htm, and http://patrickmccoy.typepad.com/lost_in ... e_wee.html
and they contradict one another a bit. I'd like a good book that explains the concepts better but don't know how to find one. Google search for books on gimu and giri didn't turn up much. Though I did find this book that might be good: The Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture but that is about Japanese culture as of the end of the world war not current (or early 90's which is when Ranma took place).

[ToastedPine]

Trying to do without giri, gimu, and ninjo would lead to problems. It's sort of like using love as the sole translation for eros, philos, agape. Or, in a more-discussed matter of translation, thinking (say) that 'Little Washu' is a decent translation of 'Washu-chan'.

The extra terminology is just confusing, plus it's not like there's no such thing as personal honor in the west or social obligation. Sheesh, how about knights and their conduct towards kings or cowboys who live by "the code"? And before anyone starts splitting hairs, I'm speaking of the most idealized versions of these terms. Let's not talk about raping an pillaging please. Last I checked, there's no moral or social code that's in use today which says those things are okay to do.

There's too much weight put on the darned terms to begin with. I don't think "giri choco" or obligatory chocolates are all that important.

Supposing the arguments above don't hold up, then I'd argue the case for clarity and understandability. There are four people here with four different definitions of the three terms, and they've all done their respective homework. Now, that in mind, how is the average reader supposed to be able to take this? Chances are most people won't even bother looking crap up, and even if they do, it's entirely possible that they come to a totally different understanding. At least with western equivalents, we have more of a chance of understanding each other.

[three headed dog]

At least with western equivalents, we have more of a chance of understanding each other.

Even with western equivalents it may not be possible to reach a consensus since there are multiple western honor codes.

For example the code of chivalry that the knights followed differed depending upon era:

The first few codes were obey the church, defend the church, fear god, etc... which no longer really apply to modern civilization.

800 ad had at least two separate codes and many people argue as to what is and isn't honorable even know:

Code 1 Charlemagne's Code of Chivalry, listed the knight's duties:
To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
To protect the weak and defenceless
To give succour to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
To live by honour and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honour of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honour of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe.

Code 2:
Love God Almighty with all your heart and all your powers
Love your neighbour as yourself
Give alms to the poor as ye are able
Entertain strangers
Visit the sick
Be merciful to prisoners
Do ill to no man, nor consent unto such as do, for the receiver is as bad as the thief
Forgive as ye hope to be forgiven
Redeem the captive
Help the oppressed
Defend the cause of the widow and orphan
Render righteous judgement
Do not consent to any wrong
Persevere not in wrath
Shun excess in eating and drinking
Be humble and kind
Serve your liege lord faithfully
Do not steal
Do not perjure yourself, nor let others do so
Envy, hatred and violence separate men from the Kingdom of God
Defend the Church and promote her cause.

Which honor code would we use?
Religious ones like the Ten Commandments, Noahide Laws (seven laws of Noah-Jewish), Eight Precepts (Buddhist).
Rules of engagement? Such as British Military ROE or U.S. Military ROE.
Codes of Chivalry?
One of the Pirate codes (Captain John Phillips's articles or Bartholomew Roberts's articles), Cowboy codes (there are several), or doctor codes (Hippocratic oath, Code of medical ethics)?
Ancient Greek concept of honor (respect which was due according to one's reputation and rank).

There are a lot of western codes of conduct and they are not all the same or valid in all situations. Also what constitute as honorable to one person may not be honorable by another persons definition of honor. In some cultures (that are western), honor killing of females of one's own family are considered justified if the individuals have "defiled the family's honor" by marrying against the family's wishes, or even by being the victims of rape.

Last I checked, there's no moral or social code that's in use today which says those things are okay to do.

There are a few. There are several in which the victim of Rape is considered unclean and has considerable social stigma such as not being allowed into schools. In some of those very same cultures the rapist gets basically a slap on the wrist. For instance a 12 year old girl was raped by 4 guys according to Maldivian news and it was deamed consensual even though they broke into her room with an axe (July 22 2007). In Zimbabwe training camps they are taught to rape, maim, torture, and kill for instance in 2001 they kidnapped a 20 year old and an 11 year old girl and raped and tortured them for over 6 months and that is just one incident there were 100's of people who had it happen to them (It was socially acceptable). In april 2005 a newly married women was raped by three males in Pakistan with the consent of her in-laws who saw it as an honorable revenge.

[fallacies]

Is there no generic equivalent of a system of social decency, obligation, and morality that an average western reader can understand on sight? Are we really that diverse that we can't comprehend other people's feelings of social obligation?

I feel that the language and the specific terminology used in this instance doesn't matter anywhere near enough as getting the meaning across, which can be achieved in plain English without much of a fuss. Insistence on using an Japanese term unfamiliar to your audience is like telling them to operate Winamp on your computer with an anime skin that has unmarked buttons.

If you lot can't agree on what the terms mean, how do you suppose the readership of your fanfiction will take them?

[ToastedPine]

There are a few. There are several in which the victim of Rape is considered unclean and has considerable social stigma such as not being allowed into schools. In some of those very same cultures the rapist gets basically a slap on the wrist. For instance a 12 year old girl was raped by 4 guys according to Maldivian news and it was deamed consensual even though they broke into her room with an axe (July 22 2007). In Zimbabwe training camps they are taught to rape, maim, torture, and kill for instance in 2001 they kidnapped a 20 year old and an 11 year old girl and raped and tortured them for over 6 months and that is just one incident there were 100's of people who had it happen to them (It was socially acceptable). In april 2005 a newly married women was raped by three males in Pakistan with the consent of her in-laws who saw it as an honorable revenge.

Fine, suppose I admit that there's some sort of moral encouragement of rape here within your examples--which I don't-- but suppose I do, then what? This goes nowhere towards proving giri ninjo and gimu should be used specifically in Ranma fics instead of western equivalents. If anything, all these tiny cultural ticks just make it that much harder to understand such concepts.

As for those codes, I was speaking generally, not specifically. They boil down to protecting things and your personal honor. What the hell is so alien or uniquely Japanese about that? So there are fine points, big freakin' woop.

Heck, there's still absolutely no definitive proof that Ranma even thinks about Ryouga in terms of the big three honor related jap terms. Larry has certainly provided enough to make the proposition questionable.