Questioning Ranma's Honor

[three headed dog]

The question was is Ranma honorable? The thing is what standards are we to judge him by. The standards of what is honorable vary by society and era also occasionally individually. Some people say all theft is dishonorable. Others say stealing when you are starving or to feed starving people (like your children) is honorable.

What the hell is so alien or uniquely Japanese about that?

Nothing many cultures and people have codes of honor, my problem with the question is; I can't answer whether he is honorable or not unless I know what standards of honor to use. If asked is he honorable by the standards of bushido, Eight Precepts of Bhudism, or the code of chivalry; I could answer as to whether he is honorable or not. To answer the question I kind of need a measuring stick to judge him by (in this case a code of conduct). (Though I could and did also use personal opinion which is that he is amongst the most honorable person in the manga which isn't saying much since most are fairly dishonorable).

Had the question been is Ranma lawful? I could answer it since I know the laws to judge him by (no he is not very lawful ignores several laws entirely like those concerning theft, private property, and trespassing).

Had the question been do I find Ranma to be moral? I can answer that as well. Since I have my views of what is moral. Though I can't answer as to whether he is moral by Japanese standards since I don't know enough about what is considered moral and immoral by Japanese standards.

Fine, suppose I admit that there's some sort of moral encouragement of rape here within your examples--which I don't-- but suppose I do, then what? This goes nowhere towards proving giri ninjo and gimu should be used specifically in Ranma fics instead of western equivalents.

First, Why did you put in moral encouragement? Socially acceptable or honorable does not mean moral or even lawful.

The only reason giri, nijo, gimu, bushido, eight precepts of bhudism, etc... should be used instead of western equivalents is because Ranma is not western. He should be judged by his own cultures standards which he would be familiar with, instead of by foreign standards. It is possible for him to be honorable by foreign cultural standards but it should not be expected of him since he is not part of those cultures. Similarly he should follow Japanese law since he is in Japan even if the law is different by western standards (like the age of consent you would not expect him to follow the US law -18 or the german law -14 or icelands 15 you'd expect him to follow the Japanese law -13).

[ToastedPine]

If asked is he honorable by the standards of bushido, Eight Precepts of Bhudism, or the code of chivalry; I could answer as to whether he is honorable or not. To answer the question I kind of need a measuring stick to judge him by (in this case a code of conduct).

The problem with this is that there's an assumption that Ranma follows any of these codes to begin with. There are a bunch of measuring sticks with different units, and it's just assumed that Ranma uses these measuring sticks, but nothing proves it. And then, as the thread went on, it went further and further into specifics of which no one could agree.

That makes me question the legitimacy and understandability of this view. When I ask questions, my goals are, more often than not, fanfiction related. What will allow me to tell the best more understandable story to my fic readers while at the same time preserving as much canon as possible. The answer I arrived at is that introducing giri, gimu, and ninjo simply ads more confusion than is warranted.

So what do I fall back on? I decided to chose something that I have in common with my target audience. It may not be a perfect fit, but at least I can approximate the effect as opposed to using a bunch of specific terms which carry meanings that no one here can agree on how to use properly.

He should be judged by his own cultures standards which he would be familiar with, instead of by foreign standards.

Except Ranma is a social outlier, and we're not sure if we can judge someone like that by the society around him.

In the interview cited, Ranma was understood to be popular in the west because of the commonalities of human experience between the east and west. I agree with this theory, and if this theory holds, then why fight it? Why bother making it more alien when you can just work on the level that people have in common? That's no way to communicate or tell a story.

[claymade]

So he does give Akane and everyone else hints in the insults he uses, giving them a chance to figure it out for themselves, since he's definitely not happy about the way Ryouga abuses Akane's trust of her "pet". But if the curse is about to be revealed by accident, he acts to prevent it. The difference is that he seems to feel that it would be okay for Akane to discover the curse on her own merit, but not by an act of random chance.

Except he doesn't even do that. In the Mark of the Battling God arc, he actively tries to explain away evidence that she's mulling over.

He doesn't want her to find out by accident. He doesn't want her to find out on her own merit. He doesn't want her to find out, period.

Thus, the "hints" are best understood as jabs, intended to rub it home to Ryouga that he only survives at Ranma's sufferance. He's basically saying by them: "Remeber, P-chan, I could utterly destroy you, if I wanted to..."

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I'd personally put that episode down to self-preservation myself. Given Akane's track record up to that point, I'd place money on her going after Ranma once she had found out about Ryoga's secret, blaming him for not telling her about it in the first place. Whether she'd figure out that Ranma was to blame by logical deduction (aka remembering all the hints he's dropped her) or simply make one of her wild leaps of logic, I leave up to you.

[claymade]

I'd personally put that episode down to self-preservation myself. Given Akane's track record up to that point, I'd place money on her going after Ranma once she had found out about Ryoga's secret, blaming him for not telling her about it in the first place. Whether she'd figure out that Ranma was to blame by logical deduction (aka remembering all the hints he's dropped her) or simply make one of her wild leaps of logic, I leave up to you.

The idea that his motive is actually to hide his own complicity in Ryouga's actions doesn't really stack up to the evidence either. He never gives any indication that that's his thought process. Indeed, quite the contrary--when it does seem that Akane has figured out the secret, his reaction isn't worry over retribution against himself at all. Rather, his thought bubbles show only sadness for Ryouga, and his concern is to try and convince Akane not to blame him.

[Necavit]

He revealed the curse to Akari... because he assumed it would make her like Ryoga more
and get the two together.

No matter which way you peel it, Im pretty sure breaking your oath,
is dishonourable.

So yea I see the P-chan jabs as just that jabs. Ranma likes to mock people
hes relized Akane aint getting it. So this gives em some fodder.

If he used them as reminders that he could destroy Ryoga...
Dear god thats wrong. He swears an oath to gaurd this weakness but taunts Ryoga with
the knowledge that he could destroy him whenever he wants? That seems pretty bloody far from
honour, personally I have a higher opinion of Ranma than that.

Question: Does Ryoga even know about the oath?

As for Ranma's honour... Honour is tossed out the window if it impedes winning or a cure,
but Im guessing this has already been said.

[Zwzn]

He revealed the curse to Akari... because he assumed it would make her like Ryoga more
and get the two together.

No matter which way you peel it, Im pretty sure breaking your oath,
is dishonourable.

I would consider it honorable to dishonor one's self to help other in need.

So yea I see the P-chan jabs as just that jabs. Ranma likes to mock people
hes relized Akane aint getting it. So this gives em some fodder.

If he used them as reminders that he could destroy Ryoga...
Dear god thats wrong. He swears an oath to gaurd this weakness but taunts Ryoga with
the knowledge that he could destroy him whenever he wants? That seems pretty bloody far from
honour, personally I have a higher opinion of Ranma than that.

Question: Does Ryoga even know about the oath?

I have always look at the "jabs" as Ranma reminding Ryoga of his own dishonorable acttions. It is one reason Ryoga hates being called P-chan by Ranma.

As for Ranma's honour... Honour is tossed out the window if it impedes winning or a cure,
but Im guessing this has already been said.

Could you please give an example of what you mean? I can't think of a case off the top of my head, but it doesn't sound too far from the truth.

The closest I can come up with is when Ranma took a map to a spring from Ryoga, and then helped him get to it.

[FriendlyEL]

As for Ranma's honour... Honour is tossed out the window if it impedes winning or a cure,
but Im guessing this has already been said.

Could you please give an example of what you mean? I can't think of a case off the top of my head, but it doesn't sound too far from the truth.

The closest I can come up with is when Ranma took a map to a spring from Ryoga, and then helped him get to it.

Some others I can think of are both the Shi Shi Hokodan and Breaking Point due to his fairly underhanded (albiet clever) tactics to win. While I'm not sure it goes against any particular honor code, seducing Kuno for the wishing sword was pretty low.

[Necavit]

One sec.

You swear an oath, you cant just break it when you feel like it. It was Ryoga's decison to tell Akari about his curse. Ranma was looking to pawn Ryoga off on to Akari first, and help his rival second. Besides not many people apreciate people who think they know whats best for others.

Friendly stated many good examples. He publicly embarassed his fiancee to win a duel, and plain out ran away from Ryoga in another.
What if Ryoga had seen Ranma run off, and just said Well guess I win.

He fell to Mousse's level in the Mask of forgiveness arc, he abandoned Akane in the relay race for a better chance at winning, continually deceives Kuno and Ryoga with his curse... theres alot of examples.

For defintion of honour... I have simply listed examples of Ranma breaking an oath, winning by "unconventional" means, or being decietful.

Personally I think Ranma's a good guy, who might consider honour somtimes. But it does not play a defining role in the majority of his choices.

Now that I have everyones attention about honour...

In the skating arc, Ryoga challenges Ranma to a duel. First one to fall into the water must give up on Akane. Ranma falls in first... shouldnt he have given up on Akane? Just curious on everyons thoughts on this.

[bissek]

The bet doesn't mean much, because Genma and Soun wouldn't have accepted the bet as valid and kept forcing the kids together anyway.

[Necavit]

But mabye a justification for Ranma to stop interfearing with Ryoga dating Akane.

Just stating that Ranma completly ignores the wager when he loses.

But when a similar wager is made to seal the Saotome Umikensen away. Ranma enforces it when he wins...

Odd...

[FriendlyEL]

But when a similar wager is made to seal the Saotome Umikensen away. Ranma enforces it when he wins...

Odd...

Probably just a loophole in the plot since it was a more serious moment. Then again, it could also be that he feels stronger about the Umikensen (which could be dangerous for people) than Ryoga getting Akane.

[Necavit]

To be honest I always overlooked it.

Didnt even notice it till someone pointed it out, it is a plothole, but its a manga. But since its what we got...

As for Ranma taking it more seriously, its not really my point.

If Ranma loses would he honour a promise? All evidence points that he wont.
But he expects others to hold a promise. Your right one was undoubtly more serious that the other.

Just a little Devil's advocate.

Would Ranma honour a promise after being defeated?

[claymade]

]In the skating arc, Ryoga challenges Ranma to a duel. First one to fall into the water must give up on Akane. Ranma falls in first... shouldnt he have given up on Akane? Just curious on everyons thoughts on this.

The actual line in the challenge is "Whichever of us falls first will give up Akane!" You could interpret that in the wooden literal sense of being a balance contest, but more likely the "fall" was meant in the more general "fall in battle" sense, rather than "fall in the water" sense. The first one to get KOed gives up on Akane, in other words.

This is particularly obvious when you look at how the fight keeps on going even after Ranma falls in once, with Ryouga still acting like the victory was on the line. It's pretty clear that both boys understood "fall" in the more general sense. And thus--since neither of them ultimately did--it makes perfect sense to call it a draw.

[antimatterenergy]

In the skating arc, Ryoga challenges Ranma to a duel. First one to fall into the water must give up on Akane. Ranma falls in first... shouldnt he have given up on Akane? Just curious on everyons thoughts on this.

In the VIZ version it is like claymade said and later in page 68 it is clarified by Ryoga saying "I told you, Ranma!! The first one beaten-- gives up Akane!!"

when a similar wager is made to seal the Saotome Umikensen away. Ranma enforces it when he wins...

Not true. Ryu agrees to seal the technique if he loses the battle, Ranma never makes any promise that he would seal them. Ranma isn't even the person Ryu makes the promise to he makes it to Soun. I just reread the story arc and Ranma never promises at any point that he would seal the techniques the only thing that comes even close to him saying so is when he jokingly mentions that they and their creator are sealed (he buried Genma) and considering that he let Genma be unsealed he can also use them if he wants to.

Would Ranma honour a promise after being defeated?

Provided that Ranma agrees to the terms of the wager, I'd say he would. Meaning if the other person says if I win you'd stop jumping on my head, Means nothing unless Ranma agreed to the wager (i.e. he said ok or I'll stop if you win etc..) If he didn't agree to the wager then no. Though he would probably try and find a loophole of some type if he can (like honoring the wording but not the intent for ex. using the above condition he'd stop jumping on the persons head but wouldn't stop standing or sitting on the persons head).

As for how honorable Ranma is I don't feel like going into that right now. As three-headed-dog said It depends on too many factors like what honor code your using to determine honor and what your personal view of what is honorable/dishonorable, etc... (winning by "unconventional" means, or being decietful are not dishonorable in all honor code). Though personally I say he's more moral than honorable (he does seem to have a view of what is and isn't honorable but it's unconventional at least by western standards not so sure about eastern).