Questioning Ranma's Honor

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

"Accidental" means that what happened was unavoidable on either person's part. If Ryoga's curse of directions had made him wander into Jusenkyo at that time when he got his Jusenkyo curse, it would have been accidental. "Unintentional" means that it was an accident on at least one party's part, but the injured party also bears some responsibility for what happened. Ryoga, canonically, took himself to Jusenkyo deliberately, even if he didn't mean to get himself knocked into the spring, so he bears some of the burden. Ranma isn't guilt free, he does owe Ryoga some restitution, but Ryoga is just as much to blame for his piglet curse as Ranma is.

To try and make an analogy, Ryoga didn't simply wander into a battlefield, he purposely followed Ranma there and took him by surprise while Ranma was carrying a loaded gun. Ranma didn't mean to shoot him, and certainly should feel guilty and/or make amends for it, but it's as much Ryoga's fault that he got shot as it is Ranma's fault for shooting him.

Part of the reason popular opinion goes against Ryoga (and note that I have never said that Ranma is blameless, just that Ryoga shares the blame- they're both at fault in the Jusenkyo curse matter) is because he uses it as an excuse for his own scummy deeds, rather than 'legitimately' demanding retribution. When he first appears, Ryoga demands Ranma give up his life (or at least take a savage beating) for something that, at the time, neither of them actually knows is Ranma's fault in any way. Then, when he does find out that he does have a legitimate grievance, and Ranma turns him into a piglet to avoid him resorting to immediate violence and with the stated intention of talking things over once he's calmed down, he goes running to Akane and taking advantage of her naivety in order to get her to punish Ranma for him. For pretty much the rest of the early series, he uses his curse as an excuse to A: attack Ranma, and B: try and "woo" Ranma's fiancee, never once actually asking Ranma make it up to him for knocking him into the Spring.

[Necavit]

At least you admit some of the blame lands on Ranma.

But I still think your example is faulty.

"took him by surprise while Ranma was carrying a loaded gun"

But Ryoga didnt attack him. Ranma wasnt aware of any threat, and Ryoga wasnt offering one. It also implies that Ryoga shouldnt have been there, and I counter with why not?

Ryoga was standing there, that was his crime. Ranma hit him in.

Lets say it wasnt Ryoga. Lets say it was me. Do I lay at fault for the crime of where I was standing? Would you blame me for being in Ranma's way? No.

You only blame Ryoga for who he was. And his intent to find Ranma. He did not make his intent clear on Ranma becuase both admit they didnt recognize who the other person was.

Ryoga intent may make him less sympathetic, but it does not make him at fault for his curse.

Keep the anologies similar, otherwise they are less effective. Lets say Im stalking you. I lose you in the crowd. So Im wandering looking for you, and you run by chasing some guy. Im in your way and you bump into my. I fall into the street and am hit by a bus.

My intent makes me less sympathetic. But who I am does not remove your guilt. You are the reason I was pushed into the street. You caused my death.

Edit*

Looks like were both editing our posts at the same time.

Oh I know why people dont like Ryoga. And it only helps prove my point that people allow their bias to change their judgment of Ranma cursing him. Like I said, if the two were reversed in the cursing, not a soul would say Ranma is partly to blame.

But hey, you admit Ranma has some fault and to be honest thats the most I hope to get out of those that arnt fond of Ryoga. If i can get that admission from Crescent, Im a happy man.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Fine. "Ran out to him through a field of landmines". Jusenkyo is a dangerous place, and he was only there because he was chasing after Ranma. Ranma bears fault for pushing Ryoga over, Ryoga bears fault for following him to a place where he could get cursed. They're both guilty, it's just that it was an honest accident on Ranma's part, whereas Ryoga's part is attributable solely to his malice/ego. If Ranma had been the one who chased Ryoga to Jusenkyo for vengeance and Ryoga was the one who knocked Ranma into the spring by accident, Ryoga would be the one sanctified over his part in that situation.

Let's not forget, until Ranma himself puzzled the pieces together, Ryoga did not know that Ranma was at fault. Let me repeat that: Ryoga. Did. Not. Know. As far as he knew, the girl who had actually pushed him into the spring was just some Random Stranger(TM). And yet he still blamed Ranma for it, he still claimed that the only person who could possibly be at fault for that situation was Ranma Saotome. Ranma does turn out to be at fault, but as far as Ryoga knew when he first returned to Japan, the girl who pushed him in could have been Shampoo, or Ukyo, or even Akane- he still blamed Ranma. That is why the average fan tends to be less sympathetic towards Ryoga's grievances against Ranma; because it's canonical and proven that he's willing to blame all of his problems on Ranma whether or not Ranma is actually the one at fault. He does mature out of that stage eventually, but the beginning Ryoga is still legitimately characterizable as a petulant, irresponsible child who refuses to admit that he's done anything wrong.

[Nekomata-sensei]

I'd like to go back to my point in a previous post, which due to nitpicking of details was improperly derailed.

Ranma is one of the more understanding and ready to listen characters in the series. Where most other characters quickly jump to conclusions and place blame or exaggerate situations and attack, Ranma tends to give them a chance to explain, and will often help them if they are in the right or the victim or in trouble.

This is what makes Ranma special in terms of comparison to the other Nerima characters, who rarely give others a chance to explain and tend to jump to conclusions and punish those who they perceive to have wronged them.

[Necavit]

I wander into a dangerous place. Therefore if something dangerous happens I am partly to blame.

So lets say Ryoga fell off and broke his neck. Would it be partly his fault for allowing himself to be so close to a high fall?

If yes, than well the argument is pretty much done. Thats a personal choice of interperting events, that the victim is partly to blame for allowing themselves to be in a dangerous spot weither intentionally or unintentionally.

As to your second point.

I dont really understand why Ryoga blaming Ranma over the curse with no evidence matters.

Your just attacking his character again. Which to me seems like blaming the victim and irrelevant to who is at fault for the curse.

You seem to be justifying why people blame Ryoga, but not the issue of weither or not its right too blame Ryoga also.


As for blaming all his problems on Ranma, neither of us wants to go down that road of arugment.

Edit* Sorry If I derailed your post. But I really dont have any arugment with you.
Though I dont see Ranma as understanding so much, more so he just seems really easy going and slow to anger.

The Ryoga curse is one of the few arguments I care to defend these days, so I figured Id run with untill my class starts.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Necavit: it matters because it proves that Ryoga doesn't want justice, he wants revenge. He took any grievance, even ones that he didn't know were legitimate, and used them as an excuse as to why he does not have to shoulder any responsibility in the affair at all. Let's say that the girl who pushed Ryoga in truly was a stranger, yet he still declared he had the right to punish Ranma for it, as he was chasing Ranma when he got his curse. Would Ranma be at fault at all? Would Ryoga have any right to blame Ranma?

Nekomata-sensei: a very good point, and one I both understand and, in my own way, am trying to get behind. Ryoga never does ask for retribution. He uses his curse as an excuse for his actions, but he does not ask that Ranma make it up to him for cursing him. Despite the fact he, of all the people in Nerima, should know that Ranma is willing to try and make amends- if only to "rub in his superiority". Ranma used to lead despite the fact he competed for the bread at lunch time and was willing to fight with Ryoga home from school, and possibly to school, when they were in Junior High together,Ryoga whenever he asked.

Ranma is not perfect. In fact, in many ways, he's barely a decent human being. Yet he still comes off as a better person than Ryoga, hence why Ranma's misdeeds towards Ryoga are often less distasteful than Ryoga's misdeeds towards Ranma. The Yoiko Hibiki thing, for example; Ranma is perfectly willing to lead Ryoga to his home when he thinks Ryoga has a reason to need to get there, and probably wouldn't have needed a reason if Ryoga had asked instead of punching him in the face and demanding that they settle the fight at Ryoga's house, with the intent of following Ranma there. Even despite Ryoga's suspicious behavior, Ranma has no ulterior motives and honestly wants to get Ryoga home, unlike Ryoga, who has arranged a meeting with Ranma's fiancee there... not to mention the fact he intends to brain Ranma, stuff him in a bag and throw him in the river once Ranma has got him there. When Ranma discovers he's been manipulated, and why, he decides that turnabout is fair play. Not mature in the slightest, but not entirely unjustified. And it at least keeps the quarreling between them, unlike Ranma going to Akane and telling her that Ryoga is head over heels with her and has basically tricked her into a date with him.

[Necavit]

Ok lets boil it down.

To me, who Ryoga is dosnt matter. I am simply proving that Ranma is at fault for Ryoga's curse. How Ryoga acts afterwards, or how Ranma acts is unimportant. This in no way can justify Ranma cursing Ryoga, It can only justify lack of sympathy, which we have already agreed to.

Anwser this.

So lets say instead of being cursed Ryoga fell off and broke his neck. Would it be partly his fault for allowing himself to be so close to a high fall?

If yes, than well the argument is pretty much done. Thats a personal choice of interperting events, that the victim is partly to blame for allowing themselves to be in a dangerous spot weither intentionally or unintentionally.


"Let's say that the girl who pushed Ryoga in truly was a stranger, yet he still declared he had the right to punish Ranma for it, as he was chasing Ranma when he got his curse. Would Ranma be at fault at all? Would Ryoga have any right to blame Ranma?"

Who said this? Of course not. What because I am defending Ryoga, I defend all his actions? I am no Ranma fan, gone Ryoga. Ryoga can do evil in my eyes and I dont justify or excuse all of his actions.


It always seems to come down to. Ranma can be bad, but Ryoga is worse. Therefore anything Ranma does to Ryoga is excusable.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

When a person goes out of their way to follow another person (and going to China from Japan is a pretty extensive excursion off the beaten track), especially when they have no legitimate reason for doing so, and the first person (who was unaware of the other's presence) causes an accident involving the two, then part of the blame does lie with the second person. That's what I've been saying all along. Ranma is guilty... but Ryoga is just as guilty. Neither of them can claim lack of responsibility here.

[lwf58]

This is just very frustrating. I have clear proof Ranma was the cause for Ryoga to fall off the cliff. I have Ranma himself testifying that the redhead is at fault. But people tell me "well Ryoga shouldnt have followed Ranma to China, than Ranma wouldnt have knoced him in".

This is why I feel that in many eyes Ranma can do no wrong to Ryoga.

The facts are: Ranma was involved in Ryouga becoming cursed. Ranma felt remorse enough to promise never to reveal the curse. That he did so not to Ryouga, but to the neighbor's dog, did not prevent him from upholding that promise in spite of very extreme provocation on Ryouga's part. Ryouga was cursed because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Was Ranma responsible for that? No, just as the driver of a car that hits a pedestrian is not responsible if that pedestrian darted out in front of him.

I think you'll find that most folks will agree with that viewpoint.

Is Ranma an angel? Not only no, but hell no. He's spiteful, petty, and jealous even when he's not interested in a relationship with a given girl. He pulls a lot of pretty stupid and unworthy stunts. But just as it's not fair to portray him as a blameless victim of fate, as much fanon does, it's also not fair to blame him for one of the few things he really was innocent of.

[Necavit]

Ah well, its been boiled down.

Firstly I thank you for helping me avoid boredom as I wait for class. Was an enjoyable arugment.

As to the final argument.

You seem to be stating that since he made the choice to follow Ranma, which you argue was a bad choice. He is therefore is at fault for the bad that happened while he followed Ranma. If thats how you personally lay out blame, fair enough.

Since I cannot win here, since its a personal perception on how to lay out blame...

Can I have legaly? Ranma would be held 100% responsible to any injuries caused from Ryoga's fall? Or am i stretching the argument.

To be honest, I was really fishing for Crescent with these posts. Like I said, you already admit blame should also be on Ranma, which more than I can hope for from the club of those not fond of Ryoga.


Edit Iwf8 I agree with most of what you say. My only problem is that Ryoga has just as much right to be where he was as Ranma did. A pedestrian has no legal right to dart into traffic. Car should be there, pedistrian no. Jusenkyo is an open training ground, both Ranma and Ryoga have the legal right to be there. This is why I made a legal reference. If Ranma was taken to court, Ryoga would win.

Err though Ryoga might than get some time for stalking Ranma...

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Look. Especially in the beginning, Ryoga is a dangerous berserk. He follows Ranma with malice aforethought - bread feud, man-to-man fight - intending to put the hurts on him at the first possible opportunity. When he finally gets to Furinkan, he attacks him out of the blue, shouting "Ranma, prepare to die!" Ranma was, erm, preoccupied at the time; if he didn't have a good danger sense, he would have been toast.

Later in the same fight, with total lack of concern for bystanders, Ryoga damn near cuts Akane's head off. And this is all before he finds out Ranma had something to do with the piglet curse.

Bad things happen around berserks. Lots of the bad things happen to the berserk himself. I simply am not going to spare any sympathy on a dangerous, murderous berserk with nothing against his intended victim but a bread feud and a fight he missed. I don't give a rat's ass if the victim him/herself had something to do with the problem. Yes, Ranma had something to do with the curse. Ranma her/himself admitted it - to Ryoga, even.

But Ryoga at that part of the story is a killer berserk. Ranma isn't. Trying to talk reciprocity simply won't make it with me.

[Necavit]

Oh yea Im not going to even argue for sympathy.

None of my Ryoga allies seem to be around, Id get myself mobbed.

Thats why Ive attempted to keep this argument from turning into a list of why Ryoga is evil and therefore anything that happens he deserves.

But If ya admit Ranma is too blame for the curse, no argument from me.

Spaceknight and I are just discussing if Ryoga deserves blame and it looks like that one has boiled down now.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Just out of curiousity, did this debate of ours arise from whether or not Ranma's knocking Ryoga into Eiton'niichuan proves him to be dishonorable? If that's the case, then my stance is that it doesn't; while Ranma was at fault, it was a legitimate accident, not an act of deliberate malice, and Ranma would be willing to make restitution... if Ryoga would approach him about it in a reasonable manner. And no, I don't count asking he turn a blind eye to the P-chan situation or allow himself to be beaten to the point of crippling injury a reasonable form of restitution.

[Necavit]

Nope, the debate was weither or not Ranma is at fault for cursing Ryoga. Im not even sure if it dealt with the orginal post. It was just something I was arguing with Crescent, otherwise this thread had been dead for awhile. So it had nothing to do with the Questioning Ranmas Honour.

And therer were a couple of minor points I raised with Crescent, but there kinda moot now.

I agreed with Neko that Ranma holding to his promise (kinda) to not reveal the curse shows a level of remorse.

Also I agree that if Ryoga had approached Ranma over the curse, Ranma would feel that he owed Ryoga.

And I dont think anyone would argue that it was anything but an accident. Ranma is many things, but he isnt malicious.

I just want an agreement that Ranma is at fault for the curse, than I got nothing to argue. Our argument was over Ryoga's fault in the curse, and thats gone as far as it can.

[Southern Cross]

Look Ranma is partly responsible for Ryoga's curse,since he accidentally pushed him into the Spring of Drowned Piglet.Nobody disputes that.
But facts are facts-if Ryoga hadn't chased Ranma to Jusenkyo,he wouldn't have been cursed.