Questioning Ranma's Honor

[Necavit]

And...? If thats how you decide who deserves blame in a situation, it would seem to me it would be very rare that one party is completely innocent.

I get the feeling people are scanning past my comments to my last one. Understandable seeing as Ive written alot in this argument. But I think its safe for me to quit on this topic, cause Ive covered all my bases.

[Crescent Pulsar]

So much while I was gone. Well, then.

Honestly, I find all (but one, for the most part) of the analogies used to free or hang Ranma with guilt to be wrong. The thing about legal restitution is that it can become retribution for the victims, instead of justice; even if the one charged with wrongdoing is completely innocent. As an example, some burglars have injured themselves breaking into people's homes, or got injuries from those that lived in the house, and were able to sue and win. I'm not saying that Ryoga qualifies for such a case; I'm just making a point that, when you get right down to it, the moral fiber of the circumstances are better things to read, rather than a book of law.

But allow me give another scenario. Let's say a father has a gun, and he keeps it loaded. And he forgot to put the safety on. His son finds the gun, shoots himself, and dies. Immediately you think that the father is at fault; he didn't take enough precautions to prevent the accident from happening. But that doesn't mean that he's destined for prison, or made into a monster by his wife and abandoned. It all depends. And not for one second did you think that the kid was at fault, for pulling the trigger, I bet.

Now, the thing about Ryoga's and Ranma's situation, to begin with, is that their meeting was completely accidental, but for only one party was it coincidental: Ryoga. Ranma was there with his father, to train; they weren't there looking for Ryoga, or expecting him. Ryoga, on the other hand, was there because he was looking for Ranma and thus had the expectation of finding him (sooner or later). In that way lwf58 made the best analogy. But I'd equate Ranma with a road, rather than a driver. Ryoga can opt to cross the road, knowing that there is a risk if he isn't careful. But, as soon as he takes that risk, he's putting his life in his own hands, not in any other's. So it comes down to this: is the driver at fault for being on the road it's supposed to be on, or is it the pedestrian's fault for the time that they choose to cross the road? The answer should be obvious. And all the more so because Ryoga had less of a reason to be where he was than Ranma did. For Ranma, it was a normal transition that he had been making for as long as he can remember, and very normal. Ryoga didn't get there because he got lost, which would have been normal for him. Instead he abandoned his normal routine, including school, and purposefully went to China, to find Ranma. Ryoga is the irregularity, here; and it's normal for irregularities to cause problems, accidents and failures. Ranma was the fine-tuned machine to Ryoga's monkey wrench, essentially.

I could go on and on. I don't mind if Ranma finds himself responsible in any way. That just means he cares, to some extent; and that's nice. But, from a logical point of view, and with full access to the events that led up to the incident, Ranma's innocent of any wrongdoing. And thus of any dishonor in this matter. Ryoga was a fool for trying to track Ranma down, and it cost him.

[Necavit]

Back into the fray. I'm low on steam on this argument though, so Ill try and keep it short.

By going after Ranma and therefore crossing Ranma, Ryoga had therefore accpeted any consequences that could happen, thats seems to be what your aiming at.

Ryoga had no reason to beleive that crossing Ranma would be deadly.

He also never crossed this road that is Ranma. He was on his was to, and was than cursed by accident. Or does Ryoga cross Ranma's road simply by following Ranma?

Not a fan of the analogy. I dont see Ryoga playing with a gun, hes only looking for this gun (which he has no idea is deadly). The mere act of looking for this gun shoundt lay blame on him if hes accidently shot before he gets to it.

If Ryoga were to find this gun and act stupidly with it and than was shot, than he would hold some of the blame.

Edit*

Just out of curiosity, if this hadnt been Ryoga and just some poor guy, Ranma would be 100% at fault, right?

[three headed dog]

Ryoga had no reason to beleive that crossing Ranma would be deadly.

That would be a complete lack of knowing history considering how many people have died in duels, threatening to kill someone might get you killed in self defense/retaliation, and people occasionally are killed even in sparing while practicing martial arts.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Pooh. Ryoga had every expectation of things getting deadly. He just expected Ranma to do the dying.

[Necavit]

Wasnt he like 12 when Ranma ran off? Do you really think there fights as kids were akin to duels to the death?

There man to man duel was always just that, a duel. A fight to see whos better.

Judging by the fact that Ranma thinks of Ranma as sort of friend before the curse, Id say its safe to say that Ryoga wanted a fight, not Ranma's blood and that he only got muderours after he was cursed. Either that or Ranma's thick, Im ok with either.

But even if you deny that, I cant think of any evidence that shows Ranma as a deadly force, except for the fight against Saffron. He seems to genuinely like Ryoga and I dont think Ryoga veiws him as a deadly threat to himself.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Wasnt he like 12 when Ranma ran off? Do you really think there fights as kids were akin to duels to the death?

There man to man duel was always just that, a duel. A fight to see whos better.

Judging by the fact that Ranma thinks of Ranma as sort of friend before the curse, Id say its safe to say that Ryoga wanted a fight, not Ranma's blood and that he only got muderours after he was cursed.

But even if you deny that, I cant think of any evidence that shows Ranma as a deadly force, except for the fight against Saffron. He seems to genuinely like Ryoga and I dont think Ryoga veiws him as a deadly threat to himself.

Ranma deadly? Can't say as I've said that. But what part of "Ranma! Prepare to die!" do we fail to agree upon?

[Necavit]

The part where I said this.

Judging by the fact that Ranma thinks of Ryoga as sort of friend before the curse, Id say its safe to say that Ryoga wanted a fight, not Ranma's blood and that he only got muderours after he was cursed. Either that or Ranma's thick, Im ok with either.

I mean he seems kinda contemptuous over the assumption its about bread, and confirms his rage is about the curse.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

What? Dozens of razor-edged bandannas flying everywhere, plummeting umbrellas blasting great pits in the ground, ki-stiffened belts giving bystanders haircuts, and an attack without warning? On somebody who (as far as Ryoga knew) had only a bread-feud and a duel against him?

There's a lot of slapstick violence in Ranma, but this particular bit is over the top even by those standards.

[Necavit]

*Scratches the back of his head*

One more time.

Judging by the fact that Ranma thinks of Ryoga as sort of friend before the curse, Id say its safe to say that Ryoga wanted a fight, not Ranma's blood and that he only got muderours after he was cursed. Either that or Ranma's thick, Im ok with either.

Im not claiming he dosnt want Ranma dead after the curse.

Im claiming it was a friendly rivalry before the curse. Therefore when Ryoga follwed Ranma it was more to finish the fight, than kill him.

My evidence.

When Ranma first sees Ryoga he treats him like a friend.
Ranma walked Ryoga home as kids.
Ryoga admits his true rage is over the curse.
And Ranma is baffled by the rage Ryoga shows when he shows up.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

It doesn't matter what Ranma thinks of Ryoga. What matters is a deadly attack out of nowhere, without so much as a challenge. Ranma's opinion of Ryoga has nothing to say about Ryoga's opinion of Ranma, and I think canon says the two opinions are very different.

[Necavit]

Ok were losing something here.

I argued that Ryoga did not expect following Ranma to be deadly.

All evidence I have shown has proven this. This is all before Ryoga was cursed. Therefore Ryoga's murderous rage comes from his curse, I hear those things tend to unbalance folk.

All of your evidence is after Ryoga is cursed and its besides the point becasue it cant show Ryoga's frame of mind before he was cursed. And making the decision to follow Ranma. Therefore the fight Ryoga wanted pre-curse was more likely to be just a fight and not a fight to the death.

You can argue how Ryoga is at point C. But for this argument and for what I am trying to prove I am concernecd about point A. And I have offered ample evidence that point B could be why Ryoga is different at point C.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

Another possible difference lies in the interpretation of slapstick violence. We've seen this argument before: some people think Ranma 1/2 is comedy; others, tragedy. I incline towards the latter view.

(It's worth noting that the story of Romeo and Juliet was a tragedy, one which bears similarity to the story of Ranma and Akane.) If you think you're dealing with a tragedy, you take a more serious view of the violence. If nothing else, you think the people doing it mean it.

[mondu_the_fat]

Once in a while there's local news about a girl (usually a domestic helper) being dying of hepatitis (ie beaten to death) in Saudi Arabia.

When the local embassy is called to answer for that, the response is

"well, if she hadn't gone to Saudi Arabia, she wouldn't have died of hepatitis. So it's her fault she's dead."

So yeah, if anyone can buy an excuse like that IRL, I'll agree it's Ryoga's fault he's cursed. Hey, no one forced her to go, so it must be her fault. Dressed slutty? My god, you're asking to be raped.

[Necavit]

Ah someone not arguing with me, refreshing.

Dressed slutty? My god, you're asking to be raped.

Ive been tempted to use this one, hence why I kept asking why we are blaming the victim.

But it seems they're trying to portray Ranma as a deadly element, that the very act of following him means you have conceeded your life may be in danger and are therefore at fault for whatever happens.

But thank you Mondu for showing me Im not the only one who sees the flaws in blaming Ryoga.

Im sorry Ellen Im not really sure what your trying to say. I feel were arguing two seperate things.