Questioning Ranma's Honor

[ToastedPine]

It's been bothering me that a lot of fics start using honor to either fix everything in Ranma's life or mess it up. Now, it's been a while since I've done an in-depth read of the manga, and my memory is fuzzy, so I'd like to ask for everyone's help in determining just how honorable Ranma is.

To me, Ranma isn't all that bound by honor-- at least, not to the degree that most fics portray. He seems to mostly hold some base lines of human decency. They're not your average common sense lines of human decency, but they're his baselines. I don't think he'd ever commit ritual suicide, even if Nodoka were to decide he wasn't manly enough, and I'm pretty sure he'd go back on a promise if he was pressed hard enough. These are just my general impressions of Ranma though.

Anyways, thoughts, citations, and all that.

[bissek]

I heard some people say that the root password to the Constitution is "War on Drugs". Of course, in recent years, that password has been changed to "War on Terror".

The root password to Ranma's honor is "Jusenkyo Cure".

[mondu_the_fat]

The root password to Ranma's honor is "Jusenkyo Cure".

Or "Happy Ryoga".

Really, Ranma can be an ass at times. In the manga, one of the recurring ones is when Ranma makes Ryoga's life hell for no reason other than seeing Ryoga happy. Ranma disguising himself as Ryoga's fiancee or his sister (and when I was reading that particular story I wanted to clobber Ranma). In the anime, there was an episode where Ryoga decides to go back to school, and Ranma does his best to sabotage it.

Ranma doesn't always try to make Ryoga miserable, or most of the time its Ryoga's partial/whole fault (such as the time when Akari and Akane were both in the house and Ryoga was trying to hide one from the other), but there are times when Ranma was just plain spiteful.

Along the "Jusenkyo cure" lines would be the Dojo destroyer arc, where Ranma tries several times to weasel out of his deal with Shampoo. There were instances when someone who didn't want to fight with him is goaded into doing so by Ranma (picolet, mikado sanzenin -- both by hurling food at their faces). In the anime, there was the martial arts calligraphy episode where he was just being an ass towards somebody who could wipe the floor with him. The dogi incident comes into mind when he tries to get Akane to drop the dogi (and he knows he was in the wrong that time).

With regards to the ritual suicide contract, I doubt that he would kill himself. He'd do everything to avoid the situation, then run away if he couldn't. However, this is an instance where I don't blame him -- Nadoka and Genma are insanely unreasonable in that regard, especially the apparent age when Ranma supposedly signed the contract.

[Seed00]

I could make all the excuses I want for Ranma, but doesn't he always get flak from Genma for losing or someone else? And how valid is Shampoo's law anyway?

With the fact that she turns into his worst fear. Can that honestly even work?

Once again, is Shampoo's law even valid in Japan? The reversal jewel arc, he was truly at his worst.

[lwf58]

I wouldn't say that Ranma targets Ryouga to make him unhappy. Ranma's actions toward Ryouga are based more on a juvenile sense of jealousy, especially in incidents that involve Akane. The times when he disguised himself as Ryouga's sister and housekeeper are both examples of that, although the latter was also intended to zing Ryouga for being a jerk, since he was effectively trying to date two girls at once (the fact that Akane wasn't there for a date had no bearing on Ranma's actions; Ryouga regarded it as a date, and that was enough).

[ToastedPine]

Once again, is Shampoo's law even valid in Japan?

Let's not get into legalities, the moment you stick the law into Ranma, you kill the series.

If the real law comes in, then you'll have to make adjustments for the the criminal and petty claims system. Could you imagine having to write about the cast if they were sued left right and center of property damage? When will it end? Black Dragon's only able to get away with it because his fic concepts make a mockery out of the legalities, and he doesn't really write Ranma fics anyways (his entire world makeup is his own).

Once the law comes in, it either gets so needlessly complicated that the story gets sucked into a legal black hole, or it gets turned into a convenient farce. Case in point: Nodoka coming in with her army of lawyers and 'fixing' Ranma's life by taking him away from Nerima. It's just darn stupid.

Bottom line, there's no way to work legalities into Ranma without general crapiness emerging. It's not some sort of convenience store that you can just go into for a bag of chips and nothing else. Nope, it's more like marrying into a family, you don't just marry the girl/guy, you marry everyone in that family including the asshole of a brother/sister in law.

http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2151&highlight=giri

I read through this thread. It's given me a bit context to deal with. It seems to me that there's a question whether or not the real world application of Japanese honor would work in Ranma. It's funny because of a comparison with real world honor, but is honor in Ranma even remotely the same?

I'm beginning to loath "honor" for the same reasons I hate the use of law in Ranma fics. It's simply assumed that Ranma's honor is the same as the honor some traditional japanese guy has, but I don't see any convincing evidence that that's the case.

[three headed dog]

Law and honor are not the same. Many honorable things are blatantly illegal such as in Sudan killing a female family member who had sex before marriage is considered honorable (300 or so women die a year from this). It's also immoral and illegal.

Many people seem to confuse honor with morals and laws. When there are differences between them. Not all laws are honorable or moral. Not all moral decisions are honorable or legal. Things can be honorable and immoral/illegal.

Shampoo's law even valid in Japan?

No. The Japanese government doesn't recognize Shampoo's people as a government. Also it contradicts Japanese law so as long as Ranma is in Japan he doesn't have to obey her laws.

To determine Ranma's honor you first have to determine what is honorable. Things considered honorable in the western world may not be the same as the things the Japanese find honorable. Ranma generally tries to follow giri (basically honor) but if it contradicts with ninjo(basically his morals/feelings/mercy) he generally chooses ninjo over giri but doesn't disregard giri (more so stretches it for example gives clues to Akane/puts Ryoga in situations where she might find out instead of straight out telling/showing her that Ryoga is P-chan). While he is amongst the most honorable person in the manga, that's not saying all that much considering the majority of the cast are not honorable. Very few people actually follow honor. You'll find a lot of people who talk about honor or chivalry but those same people rarely follow it. Even though I see Ranma as being amongst the most honorable people in the manga he is more moral than honorable. His personal moral code is much stronger than his honor code.

Ranma's pranks with Ryoga are not that big a deal considering that the honorable thing for Ranma to do is to kill Ryoga. Ryoga has openly stated he is trying to kill Ranma. Ranma could honorably kill him in battle. Not counting that Ranma still should kill Ryoga to maintain honor. Ryoga is sleeping with Ranma's fiancee Akane. Sure its in pig form and he gets beaten by Akane but that doesn't matter, if word got out Akane's reputation would be ruined and Ranma's honor would be wrecked more (because he didn't stop Ryoga and allowed his fiancee to be with others). Ryoga interfering with Saotome and Tendo clan business (i.e. trying to break up Ranma and Akane) is grounds for a blood feud against Ryoga and had it been feudal times would most likely have started a clan war.

Personally I see no problem with using laws and honor in fics so long as they are not used as an excuse to solve everything since neither can and are used reasonably.

[bissek]

You also have to consider the fact that a legal injunction might not work as a solution anyway. I've seen a couple fics where the fiancee problem is dealt with by issuing restraining orders on all rivals and unchosen fiancees (or just all fiancees, period).

The problem with that is that if it happened in the real story, the Kunos would consider the law to apply to peasants, not the noble house of Kuno, the Amazons would consider outsider law to not apply to them, Ryoga would wander into Ranma's path by accident whether he was trying to obey or not, Soun and Genma would force Akane to be with Ranma in order to join the schools whether she wanted to obey or not, and while I think Ukyo would consider obeying a restraining order, I also think there's a good chance that she'd decide not to. A chance that would approach near certainty if she realized that nobody else was obeying it either.

There are several occasions when Ranma could have killed a rival or fiancee and been legally justified in doing so (If you kill a guy who is screaming 'Prepare to Die!' while swinging a massive blunt implement and recklessly throwing around sharp objects, it isn't murder, it's self-defense), but he never even tries.

[ToastedPine]

Law and honor are not the same.

I drew the parallel because they both serve the same function. Honor and the law are both used to force events. Very rarely have I seen honor used subtly, and never have I seen the law used in Ranma fics with any modicum of taste.

To determine Ranma's honor you first have to determine what is honorable...Even though I see Ranma as being amongst the most honorable people in the manga he is more moral than honorable. His personal moral code is much stronger than his honor code.

In other words, a loose code of what he considers right and wrong governs most of his actions. The same could be said for most of the Ranma cast. In relation to Ryouga, Ranma is just being greedy by trying to have his cake and eat it too. No matter what, the closest approximation one can get to canon would be that reasons of honor would not be enough to trigger a drastic event like Ranma going ronin or any of the families declaring a blood feud. Without the proper development to elevate the importance of honor in the eyes of the Ranma cast, any fic that uses honor would automatically fail.

As for laws, bissek points out that it's entirely possible that any legal action would promptly be ignored. I agree with this.

[FriendlyEL]

Ranma's honor code...

Well, as mentioned before Ranma I do think has to deal with alot of contradictions in his life. Many of the situations he's been handed make it so that salvaging both his honor and his personal morals could be quite tricky. For example, the fiancee problem. If he chooses one of them, he risks dishonering and hurting the others. He kills Ryoga, who declared a blood feud on him, he just wouldn't be happy with himself.

I think overall he is just trying to deal with things the way he has been raised to. Unfortunately, alot of this does imply manipulation and hurting people unintentionally at times, as well as occasionally looking out for himself (like with the jusenkyo curse for example).

EDIT:
One thing to keep in mind is that much of Ranma's honor code has been formed from his knowlege of the Anything Goes Martial Arts style, which unfortunately does focus alot on underhandedness when the need be.

Along the "Jusenkyo cure" lines would be the Dojo destroyer arc, where Ranma tries several times to weasel out of his deal with Shampoo.

In his defence Shampoo was blackmailing him with one of the most sensitive subjects possible for him and all the while finding it funny that he was soon to be homeless because of her. I can't say I would have acted all that differently in his shoes.

[claymade]

Concur on the "loose code" front. He's got principles against picking on the weak, and paying debts he feels he owes and such, but he shows little regard for the codified system of honor.

(more so stretches it for example gives clues to Akane/puts Ryoga in situations where she might find out instead of straight out telling/showing her that Ryoga is P-chan)

It's not even that. He's not trying at all to reveal Ryouga's secret, and he has, in fact, taken action to prevent Akane from finding out through accidents that would have had nothing to do with him whatsoever. (Such as spinning Akane around so she wouldn't see his transformation when he falls into the water with Akari, the Mark of the Battling God arc, etc, etc.) His "hints" are jabs directed at Ryouga, not actual attempts to reveal him.

The "Ranma angsting over P-chan sleeping with Akane, but only unable to do anything about it because of his promise" thing is actually something a pet peeve of mine. It's pity for Ryouga that's keeping him from spilling the beans, not his word. Conversely, if he were ever in a situation where he thought it was actually in Ryouga's best interest to tell his secret, he would--promise notwithstanding.

Shampoo was blackmailing him with one of the most sensitive subjects possible for him and all the while finding it funny that he was soon to be homeless because of her.

...huh? When did that happen? Blackmail? Homeless? Link?

[three headed dog]

one can get to canon would be that reasons of honor would not be enough to trigger a drastic event like Ranma going ronin or any of the families declaring a blood feud.

Reasons of honor rarely start blood feuds usually they are started because someone seriously upset someone. Honor is generally just used as an excuse. Honor wouldn't cause those things but it would be used as an excuse.

It's not even that. He's not trying at all to reveal Ryouga's secret, and he has, in fact, taken action to prevent Akane from finding out through accidents that would have had nothing to do with him whatsoever. (Such as spinning Akane around so she wouldn't see his transformation when he falls into the water with Akari, the Mark of the Battling God arc, etc, etc.) His "hints" are jabs directed at Ryouga, not actual attempts to reveal him.

Your looking at it from a non-japanese point of view. Giri demands Ranma not to tell Akane the secret and to prevent her from finding out he is p-chan. Ninjo forces him to give clues but subtly, he can't straight out tell or show her and has to do everything he can to prevent her from finding out.

The "Ranma angsting over P-chan sleeping with Akane, but only unable to do anything about it because of his promise" thing is actually something a pet peeve of mine.

He does have options while he can't straight out tell Akane he could kill Ryoga over it (amongst other things) and it would be the honorable thing to do (not the moral or legal). I don't know myself but I've heard to really understand Ranma manga you need to know more about giri and ninjo, than I do. Even Takahashi in an interview expressed surprise that Ranma was popular overseas where people would not be familiar with the japanese specific concepts of giri, nijo, gimu, etc... since she considered knowledge on them to be important to enjoying Ranma.

[ToastedPine]

Your looking at it from a non-japanese point of view. Giri demands Ranma not to tell Akane the secret and to prevent her from finding out he is p-chan. Ninjo forces him to give clues but subtly, he can't straight out tell or show her and has to do everything he can to prevent her from finding out.

Is there any supporting evidence in the manga, anime, or interviews that Ranma thinks specifically in these terms? You mentioned an interview I'm not familiar with, you have a URL?

[three headed dog]

No proof, but that is how giri and ninjo would work. Ranma made a promise giri compels him to keep it. Ninjo would then compel him to give clues but only sublty since he can't break his word (giri). As for the interview in which Takahashi expressed surprise that people overseas enjoyed her work that she created for a japanese audience using japanese specific culture that would be in an interview in animerica magazine an early issue. It's online somewhere but I don't remember of the top of my head where it is.

[Drawde]

As for the interview in which Takahashi expressed surprise that people overseas enjoyed her work that she created for a japanese audience using japanese specific culture that would be in an interview in animerica magazine an early issue. It's online somewhere but I don't remember of the top of my head where it is.

http://www.furinkan.com/takahashi/takahashi7.html is where you can find that particular interview.

Several other interviews can be found at http://www.furinkan.com/takahashi/main.html