Contradictory amazon laws?

[Tovath]

I think you guys are overestimating the power of modern weapons. wanderin Ones webcomic shows how easily soldiers with modern weapons can be defeated by people carrying nothing more complicated then a bow. It's here http://www.wanderingones.com/

[bissek]

Technically speaking, up until repeating rifles were invented around the time of the Civil War, the only way a rifle was superior to a longbow was in the amount of time it took to train someone to use it. Bows were longer ranged, more accurate, and much faster to fire.

However, martial arts can't stop a cluster bomb.

[Spokavriel]

I'm not so sure about that. I've seen solid shot skeet shooting done by expert marksmen Getting 6 pigeons with throwing themself and using the repeating rifle who's to say that a martial artist couldn't have sufficient aim to use a variation on Amiguriken training and detonate all the incendiaries of a cluster bomb before they could do more than slight shrapnel damage?

Don't forget you have to deal with Ranma Physics not real world situations.

[Jupiah]

Um, I never said that the Joketsuzoku would attack the PRC army head-on. That would be suicide, even with amazing martial arts. I said that they would use their superior knowledge of the terrain and martial arts techniques to fight using guerrilla tactics.

They would use fast hit-and-run strikes to harrass the superiorly equipped soldiers, and the Bakusai Tenketsu would be used to crush tanks under landslides and trap them in sinkholes. The Splitting-cat-hairs technique would be great for confusing and intimidating any soldiers they ambushed, as they would think themselves outnumbered and waste ammunition attacking the illusions. The super-fast growing 'poison fields' that Pink and Link used in the manga would be great for incapacitating any soldiers unfortunate to be downwind from the plants (especially the deadly mandragora spores), as well as being useful for blocking off supply routes and slowing down advancing troops. The Joketsuzoku could wreak havok among the PRC's command lines by kidnapping and brainwashing officers with the Xi Fa Xiang Gao technique, and they might even be able to convince the local wildlife to attack their enemies (Cologne controlled a shark using an unspecified method during her beachside battle with Ranma).

As powerful as martial arts are in the Ranma-verse, even I don't think a small army of martial artists could stand up to a much larger, fully equipped modern army in a straight frontal battle, especially if, as claymade mentioned, said modern army also conscripted and fielded any powerful martial artists themselves. However, the Joketsuzoku have a great many special techniques that are incredibly well-suited to guerrilla warfare and subterfuge, and who knows what kind of magical artifacts and other tricks they have up their sleeves? Hell, if they got desperate enough, I could easily see the Joketsuzoku abusing the powers of Jusenkyo to fight back. Imagine a small group Amazons sneaking into an enemy camp, splashing themselves with water, and turning into Asuras or Yeti-riding-bull-holding-crane-and-eel monstrosities! Even if the Joketsuzoku didn't convince the enemy to retreat due to heavy losses, they would at least put up a hell of a fight before they went down.

Another point to keep in mind is that the Ranma 1/2 manga was first published in 1987, and although it ran until 1996, most fans agree that the entire plot occurs between 1-3 years 'in-story'. Military technology wasn't quite as advanced between 1987-1990 as it is now, which would help even out the odds for this hypothetical war.

[Shadell]

As powerful as martial arts are in the Ranma-verse, even I don't think a small army of martial artists could stand up to a much larger, fully equipped modern army in a straight frontal battle, especially if, as claymade mentioned, said modern army also conscripted and fielded any powerful martial artists themselves.

Don't think it would happen. With maybe one or two exceptions (Communist Military Martial Arts?) Martial artists in the Ranmaverse tend to be extremely independent. Furthermore they tend to fight each other.

Additionaly; would bullets even be effective against a Ranmaverse character?

Ryouga shrugs off getting his by multi-ton boulders. Hell, he was suprised that someone would actually be hurt by something like that. Now, while a bullet has greater velocity and much less size, its mass is also much smaller. In essence, it doesn't have an infinite amount of force.

It's true that a sniper could potentially kill a few. However, isn't that true of snipers everywhere? In fact, the amazons would be less vulnerable to those tactics then regular soldiers.

Guns are actually at a disadvantage to other weapons in close range (At least at Ranma level skills) Since they can only really do any direction in a linear path as opposed to a knife which would be much harder to predict. Woody or forested areas lend a great deal to close range combat.

As to crushing the amazons with shear numbers: We've seen Ranma fight against Genma all night. Genma was continuously getting beat. However at the end of the night, Ranma was more creeped out then exhausted, and Genma (Who had been getting beat constantly) was just collapsing then.

Against lower level enemies in a less active combat situation (Cause they'd be using hit and run tactics if they had any sense.) the amazons wouldn't have to worry about strategy.

As to Shampoo being the strongest amazon; well, not only did we not see any elders, we didn't see any adults. Shampoo, and really everyone we've seen, was in a growing phase. That is, no where near as strong as they'd be in their prime.

Furthermore, there is more then one village. Shampoo is quite strong. Far more so then most other martial artists who show up in Nerima. [/i]

[Jupiah]

Additionaly; would bullets even be effective against a Ranmaverse character?

The kind of bullets used in military rifles would be effective. While most martial artists in Ranma's league are highly bullet-resistant, none are actually bullet-proof. Here is a link to a fanfiction.net forum thread where Xylix and obsidian-fox do a lot of nifty math and make a very convincing argument that nothing weaker than .44 Magnum catridge would be a serious threat to Ranma, without striking a vulnerable spot. Ranma isn't exactly famous for his toughness either - it would probably take a freakin' 7.62 NATO round to take down someone like Ryoga!

So yes, most Ranma-verse characters could be taken down with bullets. It would take ridiculously powerful bullets to do it, but a modern army would be equipped with plenty of high-caliber rifles that could do the job.

You're right though that most Ranmaverse martial artists are fast enough (especially with their dangersenses to warn them) to reliably take down a gunman at close-range, especially if they used ambush tactics and illusion techniques like the splitting-cat-hairs to confuse the gunman. Without those advantages though, and especially if the gun-equipped soldiers outnumbered them, they would be screwed. Proper tactics would be key to winning those kind of engagements.

Against lower level enemies in a less active combat situation (Cause they'd be using hit and run tactics if they had any sense.) the amazons wouldn't have to worry about strategy.

What? Isn't 'hit and run tactics' a strategy?

Anyway, I think you're selling the average Ranma-verse soldier short here. Remember, Ranma and company aren't superhuman - they are just super-duper fit and insanely well-trained. I completely agree that it is unlikely that modern armies would have any soldiers anywhere near as skilled as the Nerima martial artists, let alone able to utilize their ki. Those martial artists have dedicated decades to mastering their fighting prowess. However, those armies likely have a great deal of soldiers that are just as strong, fast, and tough as most martial artists. Remember, in the Ranmaverse, it is possible for a schoolgirl who has a regular social life to become strong enough to punch through concrete walls and roof jump by training in her spare time. It is also apparantly plausible for someone to become tough enough to be virtually immune to blunt trauma by beating himself with boulders for a week or so. I imagine most soldiers, or at least the elite ones, after the Ranma-verse equivalent of bootcamp, can probably toss around cars and leap across rooftops as well as any martial artist, and having superior equipment might be able to make up for the skill deficit.

This is why I said a head-on fight would be suicide for the Joketsuzoku. They would have to use guerrilla warfare, subterfuge, sabatage, powerful ki techniques and magical artifacts to win. Fortunately, they just happen to have access to and the ability to use all of those tactics quite well.

[claymade]

Don't think it would happen. With maybe one or two exceptions (Communist Military Martial Arts?) Martial artists in the Ranmaverse tend to be extremely independent. Furthermore they tend to fight each other.

They fight each other because that's how this particular bunch have been raised. Their temperament is nothing at all inherent to the fact that they can punch and kick good.

In fact, there's nothing at all stopping the PRC from training their own elite forces in martial arts. Nor do I imagine that their drill instructors would be lenient in comparison to Genma.

As to Shampoo being the strongest amazon; well, not only did we not see any elders, we didn't see any adults. Shampoo, and really everyone we've seen, was in a growing phase. That is, no where near as strong as they'd be in their prime.

I, myself, don't really see any justification for the idea that Shampoo was actually only the "junior" martial arts champion of the village. It's certainly not in anything whatsoever she says--she just tells them that she's the champion of this once-a-year tournament.

In addition, I don't quite see how one gets "teenager" out of her opponent she defeats here. She seems quite obviously an adult to me.

Shampoo is quite strong. Far more so then most other martial artists who show up in Nerima.

Not really. A great many of those other martial artists that show in in Nerima pose a credible challenge to Ranma--which Shampoo decidedly does not.

[Togashi Gaijin]

I could imagine Phoenix taking exception to and attacking any planes getting close enough to bomb.

*snicker*
Yeah, right - I can just see some of Saffron's folks trying to intercept a flight of Q-5I travelling at over 500 knots. . . .

Face it - if the PLAAF wanted to clear out the Nyuchezu, it could do so with very little effort if it knew where to go. Running a single flight of Q-5 or Q-5I out of Lanzhou MRAF would do it easily. Just load up on the BC755s (you don't even need FAEs) and blanket the area. Instant overkill.

If the PLAAF really wanted to "confirm kill", send two or three or even four flights. Lanzhou, after all, is a major DHQ - they *have* the resources.

[Togashi Gaijin]

I think you guys are overestimating the power of modern weapons.

I think you've never seen a Hog on a live bombing run, either. We're not talking small arms fire here, bucko ... modern CAS can quite literally wipe a section of terrain off the face of the earth if there's no need to occupy that particular terrain afterwards.

... and for those of you trying to make the point that Ranma was published back in the late 80's, I'll just note that the A10 went fully operational in 1977, and has been so good at what it does that the USAF has been unable to retire the aircraft for three decades. Current plans are to obsolete the Hog in 2028.

Even given the PLAAF's inferior CAS tech re 87-93, if their intent is to simply destroy the Nyuchezu, they have more than enough tech to do so - massed hi-lo-hi carpet bombing would be nearly certain overkill. What they probably are missing is the intel on exactly where to strike.

[Spokavriel]

Nearly everything used in the first Gulf War was developed before 1990. The main differences on allot of general hardware are guidance systems and payloads.

[ToastedPine]

Amazons? Their village is Joketsuzoku, and their tribe is Nichiezu, which the Jusenkyo Guide described as the "village of strong warrior women". The name Amazon was slapped on in the Viz English translation because it was a convenient way to get the "warrior women" idea across. But by using that word, they brought a lot of excess connotations along with it, like the idea that the Nichiezu consider men second-class citizens, or that they treat them like slaves. There is no evidence of any of that in canon, IIRC.

Joketsuzoku ("tribe of women heroes"), otherwise simply known as the village of the Chinese Amazons, is the home of Shampoo, Mousse, Cologne, and several minor characters. While it is always referred to by its Japanese name, the name of the tribe in Mandarin would be Nǚjiézú (女傑族 Nyūchezū).

I checked the Kanji to the best of my ability, and from what I can tell, the mandarin pronunciation and the Japanese ones do add up. Joketsuzoku = Nyuchezu, which makes sense considering that last character is part of (種族) shuzoku, meaning tribe or race.

Regarding this entire PRC army situation, Amazons are like catgrirls, they die upon over consideration. Who cares if they can actually win anyways? They can "win" depending on the story. The information on amazon life isn't contradictory so much as it's thin. Fanon fills in about 90% of all amazon content in an Amazon heavy fic because there simply isn't enough info to hold them together conceptually otherwise. That means 90% is completely up to the author, and whoever that is _can_ fill in the large gaps to the point where anything can happen.

[Shadell]

Not really. A great many of those other martial artists that show in in Nerima pose a credible challenge to Ranma--which Shampoo decidedly does not.

A good deal more of them are blatantly ridiculous. Ranma faces a large number of the challengers he fights at their own game. That is, fighting according to rules he's worked with for a week or two. In a straight fight on even terrain, Ranma would easily be able to obliterate most of his more ridiculous opponents.

Out of the regulars, Ranma Ryouga, Happosai, and Cologne are certainly stronger in a fair fight. Akane, Ukyo, Kuno, Mouse, Genma, Soun, etc. are weaker. Thus, Shampoo is stronger then most of the martial artists in Nerima.

They fight each other because that's how this particular bunch have been raised. Their temperament is nothing at all inherent to the fact that they can punch and kick good.

Virtually every martial artist (All of whom grew up independently of one another) we see is very confrontational. It's one of the prime reasons they're so strong.

Remember, they've been raised independently of one another, yet they all act similar in many ways. That would indicate that there is a connection between temperament and the ability to effectively punch and kick. (Which would make sense if you consider that more violent or aggressive types are more prone to enjoying fighting and thus more prone to do so.) Even if not in our world, it certainly seems to hold true for the Ranma world.

In fact, there's nothing at all stopping the PRC from training their own elite forces in martial arts. Nor do I imagine that their drill instructors would be lenient in comparison to Genma.

Yes there is. As much as they don't seem to, the PRC has to exercise some human rights. From what we see of Ranma, his training was well and beyond the realms of humane by any standards.

Furthermore, Ranma started to train at an incredibly young age. This has been shown to improve overall ability by several times.

I, myself, don't really see any justification for the idea that Shampoo was actually only the "junior" martial arts champion of the village. It's certainly not in anything whatsoever she says--she just tells them that she's the champion of this once-a-year tournament.

In addition, I don't quite see how one gets "teenager" out of her opponent she defeats here. She seems quite obviously an adult to me.

Her opponent doesn't even look like a human. Judging her age is rather tricky given that her body is so distorted. She could, based off what I've seen in other anime, be anywhere from 16 to 40.

I will concede that there is no absolute proof that Shampoo is just the junior village champion. However; there is no proof that she is not.

Furthermore, if you say that the tournament likely included everyone except elders, then the amazon nation is doomed.

Cologne is far stronger then almost anyone else in the show, Shampoo is no where near the top of the power pyramid. Thus, if Shampoo is the strongest warrior, then there is no one in the village who could become an elder anywhere in the near future. Furthermore, if the tournament includes adults, then Shampoo (At near her weakest age) must have defeated people far older.

Thus, as it stands, if Shampoo is the real village champion, then no one in the village is ready to step into the area of the elders, thus, there are almost no people who can use the vaunted amazon secret techniques, which begs the rather obvious question, how do they have so many inordinately powerful techniques if they're so weak overall?

[Spokavriel]

That question on power and techniques is the main reason I think the tournament was for all skilled single warriors. Those who are already in relationships don't have so much reason to display their skills. If it were tied to the hierarchy of the village then there is no way I could see Xian Pu or her opponent making it to the final match.

[Jupiah]

Out of the regulars, Ranma Ryouga, Happosai, and Cologne are certainly stronger in a fair fight. Akane, Ukyo, Kuno, Mouse, Genma, Soun, etc. are weaker. Thus, Shampoo is stronger then most of the martial artists in Nerima.

I have to take issue with this statement. Genma and Mousse are far stronger than Shampoo. Genma, until the 'Cradle of Hell' arc, was regularly able to fight Ranma to a near-draw in sparring matches, something Shampoo has never even come close to doing. He also invented two entire styles of ki techniques, when shampoo has never even been shown to use one (other than her silly Martial Arts Takeout techniques). Mousse, while considerably weaker than Ranma, has at least been able to force Ranma to fight him seriously several times, while Ranma practically toys with Shampoo the few times they fight. Hell, even Kuno and Ukyo being weaker than Shampoo is debatable - they both have put up slightly better fights for Ranma than Shampoo has. Soun is an unknown, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt simply because his dojo is somewhat famous for his monster-hunting skills, and he is an old training partner of Genma, who is a very powerful martial artist. Shampoo is near the bottom of the Nerima strength hierarchy.

Don't think it would happen. With maybe one or two exceptions (Communist Military Martial Arts?) Martial artists in the Ranmaverse tend to be extremely independent. Furthermore they tend to fight each other.

Remember, they've been raised independently of one another, yet they all act similar in many ways. That would indicate that there is a connection between temperament and the ability to effectively punch and kick. (Which would make sense if you consider that more violent or aggressive types are more prone to enjoying fighting and thus more prone to do so.) Even if not in our world, it certainly seems to hold true for the Ranma world.

Aggressive behavior being connected to fighting behavior skill sense, so I can accept that. But you also seem to be implying that independence is also somehow connected to fighting skill? That is quite a leap of logic to make, and I can't accept that without some hard evidence. The very fact that countries are even able to train large armies contradicts that belief. Besides, I don't see any evidence that the Nerima martial artists are so independent that they wouldn't fight for they county if asked. It's not like Japan ever goes to war in the manga. Hell, are most of them even independent at all? Shampoo depends upon Cologne a great deal, and Mousse will barely breathe without Shampoo's consent. Ranma has depended entirely upon his father's guidance for most of his life.

And most of the martial artists that are independent have reasons for being so other than the fact that they are martial artists. Most of them are orphans or have had little parental guidance growing up. Ukyo, Ryu Kumon, Natsume and Kurumi, and the Tendo girls all practically raised themselves. Pantyhose Taro was likely ostracized for his curse, and poor Ryoga has his direction curse.

Yes there is. As much as they don't seem to, the PRC has to exercise some human rights. From what we see of Ranma, his training was well and beyond the realms of humane by any standards.

You're right that the PRC wouldn't be able to train martial artists to be as skilled as Ranma himself, who has trained since he could walk and faced training methods so extreme that he's lucking to be alive. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't train decently skilled martial artists at all. As I pointed out in an earlier post, Akane can roofjump and punch through a concrete wall, and she only trains in her spare time. I could easily see a modern Ranma-verse army training an elite force of Shampoo-to-Mousse-level martial artists in a only a few years. Equip them with firearms and train them in teamwork and battlefield tactics and you'd have one seriously powerful platoon of soldiers.

As for Shampoo being the village champion, since there is no concrete evidence either way, I would agree that only single warriors were probably allowed to participate, if only because having a village that produced a warrior as powerful as Cologne being otherwise populated by weaklings doesn't sit well with me. If that were true, than I guess that Cologne, in her young, must have been a martial artist prodigy that made Ranma look weak in comparison.

[Nadrek]

As a note, Togashi is absolutely correct regarding Amazon vulnerability to the PRC military.

Guerilla warfare can be very effective, if and only if the guerillas are able to get physically close to their targets, and the opponents are engaging in specific forms of limited warfare. Guerilla warfare depends on the enemy meeting you in places and under restrictions that give the guerillas an advantage. This often includes home terrain advantages, as well as the support of a significant portion of the noncombatant populace.

Let us that some extreme examples:
Guerilla warfare would have been effective for the Russians at Stalingrad in WWII.

Guerilla warfare would have been useless for the Japanese at Hiroshima.

When an enemy is waging unlimited warfare against a remote target like the Amazon village, even relatively benign and simple methods like defoliating a several hundred square kilometers, or, weather permitting, starting wildfires in a ring around the village (again, starting quite a ways out from the village proper) and following up with incendiary and high explosive carpet bombing from high altitude are quite effective. Wipe out livestock and crops, poison the water table, and continue on more conventional terms.

The Amazons have no real defense against actual unlimited warfare, which would include CBN - covering the floor of the valley with one or another chemical warfare agent is well within the capability of the PRC. Nuking the valley, too, is well within their capability, and, if one is afraid of Amazon assassins coming after Communist Party leaders in vengance, perhaps one of the most effective tactics (as long as Cologne is dealt with as well, of course).