How valid are these points?

[Zwzn]

Who did Ranma engage his future child to?

The Chardins. Just like Souun.
Snipping the rest of your post because you seem to have misinterpreted the voluntary marriage issue (was referring to the Chardins, not Ranma).

Ranma was never shown to make the engagement, and appeared to be at least a little annoyed by Picolet Chardin's behavor. Ranma looked to me like he was thinking of just beating the guy up, and literally kicking the guy out. Soun assumed Ranma would make the engagement.

[Ezvir]

Ranma was never shown to make the engagement, and appeared to be at least a little annoyed by Picolet Chardin's behavor. Ranma looked to me like he was thinking of just beating the guy up, and literally kicking the guy out. Soun assumed Ranma would make the engagement.

Ranma was not protesting, and by the standards of the Ranma manga that's implicit agreement. Just look at how often someone considers something binding without having explicitly agreed. And he didn't propose an alternative payment plan either.
Ranma didn't look angry, he looked disbelieving, surprised and embarrassed.

[Zwzn]

Ranma was never shown to make the engagement, and appeared to be at least a little annoyed by Picolet Chardin's behavor. Ranma looked to me like he was thinking of just beating the guy up, and literally kicking the guy out. Soun assumed Ranma would make the engagement.

Ranma was not protesting, and by the standards of the Ranma manga that's implicit agreement. Just look at how often someone considers something binding without having explicitly agreed. And he didn't propose an alternative payment plan either.
Ranma didn't look angry, he looked disbelieving, surprised and embarrassed.

It's a single frame, and it is left open ended. You can't claim something to have happened when it is not shown.

To me, it seems OOC for Ranma to make such a deal after what he just went through, and Ranma does not look to be in the mood to do anything, but kick ass.

[Ezvir]

]It's a single frame, and it is left open ended. You can't claim something to have happened when it is not shown.

To me, it seems OOC for Ranma to make such a deal after what he just went through, and Ranma does not look to be in the mood to do anything, but kick ass.

That single frame explicitly showed that he didn't have any reply, though. I'm not the one claiming something to have happened when it is not shown, just the opposite: My claim is that nothing that would completely change the situation happens that is not shown, while you speculate that Ranma might beat Picolet up or chase him away or something.
And Picolet outright states that he will take Ranma's daughter in place of a payment, and doesn't ask whether Ranma actually agrees. Not saying anything amounts to accepting the engagement. For that matter Souun wasn't explicitly mentioned as giving more than implicit consent to the original engagement, either.

[Zwzn]

]It's a single frame, and it is left open ended. You can't claim something to have happened when it is not shown.

To me, it seems OOC for Ranma to make such a deal after what he just went through, and Ranma does not look to be in the mood to do anything, but kick ass.

That single frame explicitly showed that he didn't have any reply, though. I'm not the one claiming something to have happened when it is not shown, just the opposite: My claim is that nothing that would completely change the situation happens that is not shown, while you speculate that Ranma might beat Picolet up or chase him away or something.
And Picolet outright states that he will take Ranma's daughter in place of a payment, and doesn't ask whether Ranma actually agrees. Not saying anything amounts to accepting the engagement. For that matter Souun wasn't explicitly mentioned as giving more than implicit consent to the original engagement, either.

The Cardians are trying to force Ranma to pay for the food in a duel he won, and he never was told before hand he would have to pay for. The Cardians do not really have a leg to stand on. Ranma does not owe the Cardians anything, and after the hell he went through I can't see him wishing it on anyone else. It is only 100,000 yen after all.

It looked to me like the Cardians are just poor losers, and Ranma was about to just beat the jerk up after politely hearning the guy out. Ranma doesn't need to say anything. His face says it all.

We can't take what other characters assume to be the truth to be the truth. Think how often they are wrong about Ranma.

[Zwzn]

Did Ranma ever agree to give a daughter to the Chardins? They may have tried to charge him one, but I don't think he actually agreed.

We never see Ranma say yes or no, and that is my hole point. It is open ended, and is never talked about again.

Soun is assuming Ranma will agree to engage a possible future daughter to a Cardian, but that really means nothing.

[Ezvir]

The Cardians are trying to force Ranma to pay for the food in a duel he won, and he never was told before hand he would have to pay for. The Cardians do not really have a leg to stand on. Ranma does not owe the Cardians anything, and after the hell he went through I can't see him wishing it on anyone else. It is only 100,000 yen after all.

He explicitly says that the loser would pay, and Ranma accepted the challenge.

It looked to me like the Cardians are just poor losers, and Ranma was about to just beat the jerk up after politely hearning the guy out. Ranma doesn't need to say anything. His face says it all.

Here is Ranma with a similar facial expression going along with shifting the engagement. He is not considering beating anyone up.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 17-084.gif

Here is Ranma basically accepting the choice of Akane as designated fiancée with a similar facial expression(he only objects to having a fiancée in the first place after this and goes along with it being Akane rather than asking for one of the others). He is not considering beating anyone up. http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 1-047.html

Here is Ranma with a similar facial expression thinking that Shampoo isn't all that bad and possibly considering not trying to get rid of her anymore. He is not considering beating anyone up.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 4-122.html

Here is Ranma with a sort of similar facial expression being told that Ukyou is his fiancée. He is considering beating someone up (Genma), but this expression is clearly different form the one facing Picolet in that the eyes are close to one of his normal angry expressions, it's a mix of that and the expression facing Picolet and in the other examples.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 9-111.html

So, I provided several examples of how Ranma's facial expression coincides with accepting an engagement. Considering how often Ranma does that compared to trying to beat someone up you should be able to provide plenty of examples of Ranma wearing that expression right before he tries to beat someone up if there was even the slightest shred of merit to your claim.
Minimal reqirements for "that expression": Eyes more than half, but not completely closed, eyelid is a straight line, pupils are a point, sweat-drop on the cheek, eyes not distorted, no popping veins, visible aura or similar.
Either put up and provide good examples or admit that you were wrong on the expression.

We can't take what other characters assume to be the truth to be the truth. Think how often they are wrong about Ranma.

Nice straw man.

[Zwzn]

The Cardians are trying to force Ranma to pay for the food in a duel he won, and he never was told before hand he would have to pay for. The Cardians do not really have a leg to stand on. Ranma does not owe the Cardians anything, and after the hell he went through I can't see him wishing it on anyone else. It is only 100,000 yen after all.

He explicitly says that the loser would pay, and Ranma accepted the challenge.

Then why is Ranma getting a bill at the end of the arc?

It looked to me like the Cardians are just poor losers, and Ranma was about to just beat the jerk up after politely hearning the guy out. Ranma doesn't need to say anything. His face says it all.

Here is Ranma with a similar facial expression going along with shifting the engagement. He is not considering beating anyone up.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 17-084.gif

Here is Ranma basically accepting the choice of Akane as designated fiancée with a similar facial expression(he only objects to having a fiancée in the first place after this and goes along with it being Akane rather than asking for one of the others). He is not considering beating anyone up. http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 1-047.html

Here is Ranma with a similar facial expression thinking that Shampoo isn't all that bad and possibly considering not trying to get rid of her anymore. He is not considering beating anyone up.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 4-122.html

Here is Ranma with a sort of similar facial expression being told that Ukyou is his fiancée. He is considering beating someone up (Genma), but this expression is clearly different form the one facing Picolet in that the eyes are close to one of his normal angry expressions, it's a mix of that and the expression facing Picolet and in the other examples.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 9-111.html

So, I provided several examples of how Ranma's facial expression coincides with accepting an engagement. Considering how often Ranma does that compared to trying to beat someone up you should be able to provide plenty of examples of Ranma wearing that expression right before he tries to beat someone up if there was even the slightest shred of merit to your claim.
Minimal reqirements for "that expression": Eyes more than half, but not completely closed, eyelid is a straight line, pupils are a point, sweat-drop on the cheek, eyes not distorted, no popping veins, visible aura or similar.
Either put up and provide good examples or admit that you were wrong on the expression.

Ranmahentai hasn't worked for me for about a month now for some reason I keep getting Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage and The connection has timed out on foxfire for some reason.

I do have the book right in front of me however. You are right, Ranma is not angry, but he is clearly not happy with the Cardians pushing for the engagement option. Ranma has a clear choice. He can engage a possible future daught to people he does not like to put it nicely, or he can pay 100,000 Yen. The Cardians want the engagement, and nothing says Ranma has to make an engagement, or will. 919.388 USD is not that hard to come by, and there is nothing that says Ranma would have to pay it all at once, and right then and there. One way would be to have the clearly rich Tendo family loan Ranma the money.

Universal Currency Converter
http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Picolet Chardin: holding a 100000 yen bill: Of course you will promise me your future DAUGHTER as compensation....

Ranma: Sweat drop on his face looking unhappy: ......

Soun: crying: Akane, don't you dare have any girls!

Akane: Angry: Leave me OUT of this!

I don't see where it is stated Ranma made an engagement.

We can't take what other characters assume to be the truth to be the truth. Think how often they are wrong about Ranma.

Nice straw man.

You seem to me to be assuming because Soun assumes Ranma will make an engagement that is what Ranma will do as far as I can tell. It is like those people who think because Nabiki assumes Soun forced Akane to go along with the wedding it must be true.

[Ezvir]

Then why is Ranma getting a bill at the end of the arc?

Because he didn't pay when Picolet left the bill after the initial challenge, and ran away when Picolet reminded him he still had to pay shortly before "Tendou Ranma" challenged Picolet.

I do have the book right in front of me however. You are right, Ranma is not angry, but he is clearly not happy with the Cardians pushing for the engagement option.

Of course he is not happy. Who would be happy to see his creditor?

Ranma has a clear choice. He can engage a possible future daught to people he does not like to put it nicely, or he can pay 100,000 Yen. The Cardians want the engagement, and nothing says Ranma has to make an engagement, or will. 919.388 USD is not that hard to come by, and there is nothing that says Ranma would have to pay it all at once, and right then and there.

But Ranma already demonstrated that he considers the bill unpayable by running away from it repeatedly, and he isn't suggesting a payment plan either. He isn't even pleading that there has to be some other way to pay it, which would be the way to go if Takahashi intended it to be left open, and would even preserve the joke. He is simply saying nothing, which amounts to implied agreement (by the standards of the Ranma 1/2 manga anyway).

One way would be to have the clearly rich Tendo family loan Ranma the money.

Except that Souun is right there and not offering to foot the bill.

Picolet Chardin: holding a 100000 yen bill: Of course you will promise me your future DAUGHTER as compensation....

Ranma: Sweat drop on his face looking unhappy: ......

See? Implied agreement right there. Otherwise he really would have to say something to show that he doesn't agree.

You seem to me to be assuming because Soun assumes Ranma will make an engagement that is what Ranma will do as far as I can tell. It is like those people who think because Nabiki assumes Soun forced Akane to go along with the wedding it must be true.

Except that I didn't even mention Souun being there before this post and never used his statement as an argument. Hence, straw man.

[Zwzn]

I find it interesting you have stopped saying Ranma did engage a possilbe future daughter to a Chardin,, and are now saying it is just implied, but only your interpretation can be correct.

I do have the book right in front of me however. You are right, Ranma is not angry, but he is clearly not happy with the Cardians pushing for the engagement option.

Of course he is not happy. Who would be happy to see his creditor?

I guess I'm strange then. I find it so much easyer to work out payment plans when talking to someone face to face.

Ranma has a clear choice. He can engage a possible future daught to people he does not like to put it nicely, or he can pay 100,000 Yen. The Cardians want the engagement, and nothing says Ranma has to make an engagement, or will. 919.388 USD is not that hard to come by, and there is nothing that says Ranma would have to pay it all at once, and right then and there.

But Ranma already demonstrated that he considers the bill unpayable by running away from it repeatedly, and he isn't suggesting a payment plan either. He isn't even pleading that there has to be some other way to pay it, which would be the way to go if Takahashi intended it to be left open, and would even preserve the joke. He is simply saying nothing, which amounts to implied agreement (by the standards of the Ranma 1/2 manga anyway).

Trying to run out on a bill does not mean a character thinks a bill is unpayable. It means they just don't want to pay it, and normally the people who they owe money don't hunt them down, but then again the people who they owe money to don't seem to know where they live, or who they are.

The fact of the matter is things where said before we the viewer arrived, and after we leave, but we don't know what those things said where. Ranma is saying nothing because we the vreader don't stick around long enough for Ranma to answer.

Takahashi never wrote Ranma as saying yes or no to the engagement idea, and we don't know what is going on. Since you can read the characters mind as well as the writer's could you tell me why Kasumi treats Ranma so poorly?

One way would be to have the clearly rich Tendo family loan Ranma the money.

Except that Souun is right there and not offering to foot the bill.

It was a example of a possible way Ranma might get the money quickly, and Soun not thinking of such a easy fix would not really be OOC.

Picolet Chardin: holding a 100000 yen bill: Of course you will promise me your future DAUGHTER as compensation....

Ranma: Sweat drop on his face looking unhappy: ......

See? Implied agreement right there. Otherwise he really would have to say something to show that he doesn't agree.

I see implied disagreement, but you are the one who can read fictional characters minds. To me Ranma seems disgusted with Picolet's behavor.

You seem to me to be assuming because Soun assumes Ranma will make an engagement that is what Ranma will do as far as I can tell. It is like those people who think because Nabiki assumes Soun forced Akane to go along with the wedding it must be true.

Except that I didn't even mention Souun being there before this post and never used his statement as an argument. Hence, straw man.

You knew Soun was there, and his comment is the only thing that is a yes to the engagement. One could actually take Soun's statement to show Ranma will not make the engagement given how common it is for characters to missread what Ranma will do.

[three headed dog]

It left it open ended for the Chardon engagement so we really can't know what happened. Personally I do not think Ranma would sell his future daughter it's really OOC. Ranma is far more likely to steal money, trick Chardon family, get the money from someone else like one of the Kuno's or work to pay it off (Ranma has taken jobs in the manga). The bill is far from unpayable, he should be able to get that much if he had to in several ways.

Genma is NOT a habitual thief, in that he doesn't take things from strangers with the intention of stealing them.

He did try to steal from his own wife, even was shown to have the ability to open safes. He did create two martial arts styles based on theft - Umisenken and Yamasenken. He has been shown stealing in the manga on more than one occasion. That he's not rich doesn't mean he isn't a habitual theif. He likely was sending money to Ranma's mom, blowing money on things a lot, stealing to pay for trip, and stealing was not his main concern training Ranma was, it was more of way of paying for their life style. He did not steal to become rich, but he did steal often. He seems to have stolen smaller stuff that people really wouldn't get too upset with - which would make sense to stay off the police radar.

How Takahashi stated they paid for things like Ranma school: "But their lifestyle is basically to find something to eat and something to wear, so they live like hunters. (laughs) When they need money, they get something and trade it in for money." Which sounds a lot like stealing stuff and then selling it.

[Ezvir]

Trying to run out on a bill does not mean a character thinks a bill is unpayable.

We are not talking about just any character here, we are talking about Ranma, who cares infinitely more about saving face than about things like money or avoiding hard or degrading work. If he considered the debt payable he wouldn't give up on the chance to make up for his defeat by beating Picolet as himself and showing him who is better.

It means they just don't want to pay it, and normally the people who they owe money don't hunt them down, but then again the people who they owe money to don't seem to know where they live, or who they are.

Who is Ranma owing something to that fails to arrive at the Tendou doujou eventually? In fact, this seems to be the first debt Ranma tries to run away from since the Gambler king, and he wasn't able to pay that one either.

The fact of the matter is things where said before we the viewer arrived, and after we leave, but we don't know what those things said where. Ranma is saying nothing because we the vreader don't stick around long enough for Ranma to answer.

That could be argued if there was no speech bubble at all. We don't just fail to see Ranma reply though, we see him fail to reply.

Takahashi never wrote Ranma as saying yes or no to the engagement idea, and we don't know what is going on.

In this case not saying no amounts to saying yes.

Since you can read the characters mind as well as the writer's could you tell me why Kasumi treats Ranma so poorly?

Your straw men are neither clever nor amusing, please stop.

It was a example of a possible way Ranma might get the money quickly, and Soun not thinking of such a easy fix would not really be OOC.

Yeah, and Mousse might lay golden eggs which they could use to pay the debt.
Whether it's theoretically possible to paint a scenario where Ranma somehow resolves the issue in another way is not really the issue at hand, your case requires Ranma to have resolved a rather important issue completely offstage without even a hint of a clue how, or even that, he did it. If you think that's likely you should be able to give other examples of Ranma doing comparably important things completely offstage without any hint of how he did it.

]I see implied disagreement, but you are the one who can read fictional characters minds. To me Ranma seems disgusted with Picolet's behavor.

Hint #1: Compare the google hits for the phrases "implied agreement" and "implied disagreement"
Hint #2: Check what portion of the latter actually uses the phrase to describe a specific action or non-action constituting a refusal of a particular deal/offer/contract/agreement, and not just e. g. something revealing differing opinions.

You knew Soun was there, and his comment is the only thing that is a yes to the engagement. One could actually take Soun's statement to show Ranma will not make the engagement given how common it is for characters to missread what Ranma will do.

Kindly stop trying to shove that straw man down my throat. Now. Do not attribute arguments to me I didn't make, your limited imagination is no excuse.

[Ezvir]

He did try to steal from his own wife, even was shown to have the ability to open safes.

Technically the Saotome inheritance already was his property, and his wife is not a stranger.

He did create two martial arts styles based on theft - Umisenken and Yamasenken.

And then promptly sealed them.

He has been shown stealing in the manga on more than one occasion.

With the qualifications I mentioned? Name examples.

That he's not rich doesn't mean he isn't a habitual theif. He likely was sending money to Ranma's mom, blowing money on things a lot, stealing to pay for trip, and stealing was not his main concern training Ranma was, it was more of way of paying for their life style. He did not steal to become rich, but he did steal often. He seems to have stolen smaller stuff that people really wouldn't get too upset with - which would make sense to stay off the police radar.

All pure speculation, and Occam's razor would suggest that not habitually stealing is more likely than habitually stealing in a way that makes no visible difference, despite obviously having enough skill.
Also we know that one of the first things he did in Nerima was to find a job, and presumably he would have done the same whenever Ranma visited school somewhere.

How Takahashi stated they paid for things like Ranma school: "But their lifestyle is basically to find something to eat and something to wear, so they live like hunters. (laughs) When they need money, they get something and trade it in for money." Which sounds a lot like stealing stuff and then selling it.

So hunters= theives in your world?

[Zwzn]

We are not talking about just any character here, we are talking about Ranma, who cares infinitely more about saving face than about things like money or avoiding hard or degrading work. If he considered the debt payable he wouldn't give up on the chance to make up for his defeat by beating Picolet as himself and showing him who is better.

Define saving face.

Running away is something of a standard attack for Ranma.

Who is Ranma owing something to that fails to arrive at the Tendou doujou eventually? In fact, this seems to be the first debt Ranma tries to run away from since the Gambler king, and he wasn't able to pay that one either.

Your changing the topic it seems.

Ranma never owned the Tendo Dojo, and the Gambler king knew this when he made the bet. Ukyo also never owned the cart she bet.

Gambler king also never won the Dojo anyway because he did not play by the rules.

That could be argued if there was no speech bubble at all. We don't just fail to see Ranma reply though, we see him fail to reply.

We see Ranma give a long sigh. His eyes are half open, and there is a sweat drop on the side of his head.

This is what you assume can only mean Ranma will engage a possible future daughter to a Chardin, and I and many others say it could mean alot of stuff. The only way to know what Ranma is planning to say is if you can read Ranma's mind.

In this case not saying no amounts to saying yes.

Only because you want it to mean yes. It could also mean Ranma is thinking.

Your straw men are neither clever nor amusing, please stop.

You are the one claiming to know what Ranma was thinking with no thought bubble given.

Yeah, and Mousse might lay golden eggs which they could use to pay the debt.
Whether it's theoretically possible to paint a scenario where Ranma somehow resolves the issue in another way is not really the issue at hand, your case requires Ranma to have resolved a rather important issue completely offstage without even a hint of a clue how, or even that, he did it. If you think that's likely you should be able to give other examples of Ranma doing comparably important things completely offstage without any hint of how he did it.

If it is not important to the "story" R.T. ignored it, and we know Ranma does stuff off "screen".

Hint #1: Compare the google hits for the phrases "implied agreement" and "implied disagreement"
Hint #2: Check what portion of the latter actually uses the phrase to describe a specific action or non-action constituting a refusal of a particular deal/offer/contract/agreement, and not just e. g. something revealing differing opinions.

You do realize I was just trying to say I disagree with you, right? I see no implied agreement.

Kindly stop trying to shove that straw man down my throat. Now. Do not attribute arguments to me I didn't make, your limited imagination is no excuse.

You are the one assuming Soun is correct. I was making the assumtion that Soun's comment was what made you think Ranma would agree to the engagement.

Your entire argument is based on assumtions with nothing but a sigh to support them if you don't at least assume Soun to be R.T. implying Ranma would make the engagement.

Please stop being insulting. Think of how easy it would be for someone to insult you in this thread. You are trying to pass off an idea as canon fact. Your theory is plausible, but has no hard evidence to back it up.

[Ezvir]

Your, Mr Don Quixote, are obviously not someone I can have a civilized debate with, seeing as how you keep violating one of the more elemental requirements.
Apologize for insulting me by by insisting on sticking your stupid straw men on me and we can continue, don't and you can rot in hell for all I care.