What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

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What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:04 am

Well, I enjoyed Space Knight's topic, so I hope he doesn't mind if I raise another topic in the same spirit. (Forgive me!)

Right, so... I'm sure that some of you have already had Genma's Daughter come to mind. Well, you're welcome to see it that way, if you want. I won't say anything on that matter, if only to avoid any potential arguments over it.

Anyway, I recently conceived an idea for a story in regard to this topic. So, naturally, I was curious to see how others thought Ranma would react if his mother told him that he had been born as a girl. Rather than when his mother first appears, however, it's any time after she realizes that Ranma and Ranko are the same person. This is a deliberate exercise in subjectivity, of course, so let's not argue over opinions, okay? ^^
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby frice2000 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:46 am

Well psychologically it'd be interesting with the whole nature versus nurture debate. You've got people in real life who experienced a horrible accident when they were being circumcised and were made into woman who grew up to feel like they were the wrong gender. And you've got inter sexed individuals who were born and their parents decided their gender who feel off too. Then you've got the opposing studies and viewpoints that it's all nurture and how the person grew up with sex at birth not nattering. Not sure where I would be on that fence but it does make the discussion more interesting for the scenario you're proposing.

Personally i think in regards to Ranma if all things in cannon were the same but being born a different gender and then magically changed into the different before socialization with others...I don't see that revelation making a big dent on his sexual identity. Yes, he would get depressed, confused, and bewildered and may do sone feminine activities to make his mother happy but i don't think his internal gender identiy would change. He was raised in a vacuum for the most part with no female ro-models. I don't think he has any idea beyond a caricature what would be expected of him. Now if he remembers her socialization early as a female i can see him trying to understand his birth gender and become a girl but I don't think in that case he'll ever fit in with either crowd. You mention Genma's Daughter and while a well written story the plot rubbed me really wrong. Fine become more feminine but forsaking everything that makes Ranma Ranma in the pursuit of that goal was not at all in character with anyone much less Ranma. A more gradual and slow change like is present in World's Fall Apart was to me a much more probable sort of reaction. A similar feminine at points but still strongly a kick-ass tomboy is what would come out of the situation. Now thats not unique like Violin playing genius of Genma's Daughter but it feels right. Abandoning everything that makes you you even though you find out your whole life has been a lie just feels cheap.

If i was writing a story like you're theorizing here I'd do a very gradual and hesitant with lots of lurches along the way. And the end result isn't going to be a girly girl. Depending on how realistic i wanted it to be I'd make the end point a very confused and bewildered individual. It would take years and years for him to change signifigantly from this scenario in my mind and I think the end result would be him forsaking 'her' still just because of the force of how he was raised. I could see him accepting being a girl but I don't think it'd be a feminine or comfortable girl in the least. I honestly think it's easier to justify a willing gender transformation and personality change of his character not using the plot element you have outlined simply because i just imagine so much inbuilt resistance and hatred at his father but still clinging to the foundations of what he knows then embracing such a nebulous concept as his own feminity.

Note: This was typed right before i passed out from lack of sleep I'll look it over when i wake up tomorrow...Pooh pretty colored floating Ryo-Ohki's!
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Wyrd » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:58 am

In defense of Genma's Daughter, all of that behaviour was not ingrained into his personality, it was an attempt to overcompensate for perceived shortcomings in himself. He didn't like to fight, but was told that he was supposed to, so he took up any challenge no matter how silly because he didn't want to take up any of them and never wanted to seem unmanly. Most of who Ranma becomes could be seen in the existing character, just interpreted in a different fashion.

I agree that Ranma would likely not become a girly girl, or would become too much of a girly girl while female because he doesn't know how to act properly. Look at drag queens. They often act more feminine than actual girls because they are overcompensating and because even the slightest masculine habit can give them away. Cross-dressers who want to pass as the opposite sex have to spend a lot of time practicing to get the right balance of how to act, and I think Ranma would go through a similar period of adaptation if he wanted to explore himself as a she. If his mother thought of him as a girl and wanted him to be more feminine, he would seriously try. The success he has had at acting feminine means that he could probably become a convincing girl with some practice.

His gender identity is a big question that is hard to answer. Since she became he, and he then became both he and she by magic, he might very well feel comfortable in whichever form he happens to be wearing. His insistence on proclaiming that he is a guy while a girl could partly be the fact that it feels just as natural for him to be a girl as it does to be a guy. Sexual orientation is also an issue that needs to be brought up. Given Ranma's in canon behaviour, I suspect that he is either a) attracted more to guys than to girls, though he shows enough attraction to girls to show that he is bi, b)heterosexual in each form, so he is attracted to girls while male and attracted to guys while female, or c) nonsexual. Some people have very little actual sex drive. They can still be interested in the aesthetics of someone being pretty or handsome, and can respond sexually to enough stimulus, but they don't get the reactions downstairs that the average person gets to less direct stimulus.

In this version, does Nodoka know that Ranma was born female and turned male before discovering that Ranma and Ranko are the same person? If she didn't, she would be looking for her daughter Ranma or her daughter Ranko, which would give things away rather early. If Ranma became male out of some sort of mystical accident, then part of the training journey could have been a search for a cure, with Nodoka's approval. For that though, there needs to be an alteration to the seppuku contract, such as, "If I fail to find a cure for my daughter or fail to raise my son as a man among men..." This could lead to Ranma asking about his sister and a lot of hedging from Genma.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby frice2000 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:37 am

she didn't, she would be looking for her daughter Ranma or her daughter Ranko, which would give things away rather early.

Very true. The scenario brought up by Pulsar is not taking that into account she went on fantasizing about how masculine her boy would be I've no doubt she'd let slip near instantly that she's looking for her daughter. That could lead to some interesting wrong conclusions with Ranma thinking he was kidnapped or something as well as you outlined the 'sister' thing.

heterosexual in each form, so he is attracted to girls while male and attracted to guys while female

I'd buy that one personally. I think as you outlined the overly masculine behavior and distaste at femininity comes from that disgust. 'Her' body may be wired to be heterosexual but his brain screams at how wrong that is. That can't be conductive to good mental health and the scenario here would muddy that even more. Could have some fun with that given the concept here. What would be 'natural'. Also unless his partner has a Jusenkyou curse too damn if he's going to have problems being settled with one person in that case.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Wyrd » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:58 am

There are 'training programs' that 'cure' homosexuality by training the person to associate pleasure with being with someone of the opposite sex. This doesn't actually make them attracted to the opposite sex, but it can give them enough pleasure from conditioned response to function in sexual intercourse. Ranma could get enough practice at enjoying being with his wife as a guy or husband as a girl that he still experiences pleasure from being around them while in his other form despite the lack of actual attraction. If Ranma really is heterosexual in each form, then unless he got cured of his curse(winding up in either form permanently), I expect he would wind up ignoring or suppressing one side of his sexuality in a very unhealthy manner, and likely end up cheating on his spouse at some point when his repressed sexuality becomes too much, possibly followed by him committing seppuku because of the shame.

One of the biggest thing that I agree with in a great many fanfics is that the biggest thing Ranma needs is a good therapist to help him work through what he is going through. There are plenty of people out there who could muddle their way through the issues, with varying degrees of success, through introspection, but the way he was raised leaves Ranma lacking most of the mental tools he would need to do so.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby FriendlyEL » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:18 pm

In all honesty, I think he would try to delude himself into believing he wasn't and that his mom was lying. Given in cannon what he is willing to go through to cure the curse or to unlock it if he is frozen in girl form, this is information he's not going to consider being reality.

Once he does accept it, well, he's probably going to be depressed.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:18 pm

I can see how that might be a likely reaction. Especially the part where he goes off to sulk/brood.

@ Wyrd & Frice:

Since I was only asking for his reaction, the circumstances don't really matter. With the notable exception that its timing is at the end of the series, or after, because it should make it easier to evaluate his character with more material behind him. So, basically, however and whyever Nodoka tells him, it somehow fits into canon. (Which is intentional, since that's also what I'm trying to accomplish with the opening of the story I'm working on.)
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby frice2000 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:18 pm

I don't see how you're going to work this out with it at the end of the series. Why would Nodoka not tell 'him' that he's a she earlier? I don't understand that entirely. Did Genma and her get together and so wanted a boy that they used magic on her to change 'her' into 'him'? If so why? Not getting that. Magic to make Nodoka forget she had a daughter? I don't understand why she'd play the game of looking for a son when she had a daughter nor do I think she'd do it willingly. I especially don't think Nodoka would allow for one of her daughters to be changed if another baby was a possibility. She seems a tad too traditional in my opinion to allow a woman in general to be trained by her father over a long period. I'm just having problems seeing how this fits in especially post cannon. I think I need some more information to some of the questions I asked in this post before I can figure out whatever reaction I think Ranma would have.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:31 pm

You'll have to find out once I finish writing it. That aside, it's irrelevant to this topic, since it's only about Ranma's reaction to finding out, not the how or the why of it.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Wyrd » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:45 pm

Initial, immediate reaction would obviously be disbelief. Denial would follow close on the heels of disbelief. I see him either running and hiding in his room or leaving the Tendo dojo entirely, possibly to go to the bridge brought up so often in fanon(I don't recall ever seeing him sitting under a bridge in canon, but I didn't finish reading the series before my computer crashed), possibly to find someone to fight so he doesn't have to think for a while. Kuno or Ryouga would be good targets for that. Once he gets over the denial stage, which may take a while, there is a good chance he would spend some time beating the *bleep* out of his father, depending on the circumstances that lead to him going from girl to boy. Knowing that he started as a girl, that his father knew this, and that his father continued to push him constantly to always be manly and mock him for behaving even the slightest bit feminine could really fuel the anger portion of coping with news for quite a while. The morning spars, at the least, would likely be far more vicious for a long time. In trying to accept that he started as a girl and in trying to make his mother happy, he could try to go all girl for a while, likely becoming overly feminine and possibly even giving up martial arts entirely for a time until the women in his life beat into his head that being female and feminine doesn't mean that he has to become a Yamato Nadeshiko like his mother and Kasumi. Akane, Shampoo, and Nabiki would be the strongest candidates for getting him out of this phase and moving towards a more balanced solution. Ukyo, having suppressed her own femininity for so long, and Konatsu might be able to provide him with better advice to help him cope and help him deal with his newfound knowledge. In the end, I think Ranma would come to a balance that lends itself to the masculine side, since that is how he was raised. He would be a bit of a tomboy while a girl, but already demonstrates enough of a mastery feminine wiles that he would likely make a very convincing girl with some practice. I don't see him developing much of a sense of feminine shame/modesty because he doesn't seem to have much of a masculine sense of shame/modesty to begin with. Wearing female clothing and doing feminine things would become acceptable as long as he was in girl form, since he really was a girl, but his self-image as honed by the way Genma raised him would likely still compel him to act as masculine as possible while male. Given that Japanese society tolerates a tomboyish girl far better than a feminine guy, this is probably a good thing.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:29 pm

Ranma discovers he was really originally a SHE?

Take what he does already, and crank it up to ELEVEN.

Ranma will try to disprove it, and reinforce hey guyness.

Though when he's Ranma-chan, he'll indulge even more so to things like ice cream, using the excuse: 'Well, I started out as a girl'.

It doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out.

The thing about Ranma is that while he keeps telling himself he hates the curse, he's more than a little willing to exploit it at any given oportunity. Be it as a disguise, or a free ticket. He's very much two-faced about it. Throwing a little extra fact in on top of it given his current personality wouldn't do anything, just make him more aware.
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby Konsaki » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:27 pm

I'm going to take the long shot and say that nothing would change, considering how he's always using the girl side of himself already. I'd say he'd just shrug and say something along the lines of 'It's surprising, yeah, but it doesn't really change anything does it?'
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Re: What If: Ranma learns that he had been born as a girl.

Postby BonusPoints » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:33 pm

I guess I'll answer the original post. I see it coming as a massive shock, but certainly not a traumatic one, especially if this is revealed after volume 38. By that point, even if only tentatively, Ranma has acknowledged that his female side may well have been a part of him all along, and that the curse really wasn't much of one anyway. I see Ranma loudly proclaiming that it doesn't change anything, while privately trying to work out whether it should. He would probably stay the course until he could think his way out of the logical puzzle this new detail has created for him.

The end result is, I think, Ranma becoming a little more reserved in female form, a little less so in male form, and in all ways more cautious about the engagements. I don't see Ranma being able to resolve the situation further without outside assistance, since now it's more improper to pursue marriage with Akane than it was before. It could certainly leave Ranma in the position of *wanting* to understand Ukyo's decisions and life; it may not have been his own choice, but he was made to give up his original gender just the same as she was.

I suppose its an idea interesting only for if, and how, it would change existing relationships. Its impact on Ranma's personal, rather than social, identity seems like it would be fairly minor.
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