Amaguriken

[antimatterenergy]

This is posted to see if people agree with me, to see if I got something wrong or my understanding is wrong. (I was unable to convince the other person.)
I was arguing with someone earlier about the Amaguriken and the other person said that Ranma could not possibly be throwing 100's of punches per second because there is no sonic boom. I don't know how fast Ranma can punch but I don't see why he couldn't throw hundreds of punches and not cause a sonic boom. The speed of sound at sea level and 32 degrees F (0 C) is around 1086 feet per second (331.29 metre's per second). Now depending on other conditions such as atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity, and wind the speed of sound can be higher or lower. So unless I'm misunderstanding something Ranma could be throwing hundreds of shallow punches per second even if he was pulling his arm back a full foot or more and not create a sonic boom (with hotter temperature, humidity, and only pulling his arm back 1/2 a foot he could throw over a thousand punches in a second and not create a sonic boom). Even if he was throwing full deep punches pulling back nearly two feet per punch he could still throw over 200 punches without reaching the speed of sound. Even though Ranma doesn't create a sonic boom doesn't mean that Ranma isn't effecting the air we have seen that the high end speed techniques in Ranma 1/2 do effect the air, both Kuno's sword technique and Ranma's Amaguriken cause shock/pressure waves. I think that it is also possible that Ranma's punches could actually be faster than the speed of sound and not cause a sonic boom simply because Ranma's punches could push away enough air that sound can't travel through or even create a vacuum in which sound doesn't travel through at all (there would be a sound when air rushes in to equalize the pressure though but it still wouldn't be a sonic boom). Of course there is also the issue that a fist even if it where moving faster than sound may not cause a sonic boom simply because of its size, shape, movements, length of time it's moving faster than sound (unlike a plane Ranma would only use this speed for a fraction of a second in most cases), and the way that the energy is released into the environment. A fist after all with it's back and forth movement is not likely to create a large enough sum wave (usually seen in vehicles as a mach cone) simply because the back and forth motion may prevent one from forming.
Before learning the Amaguriken Ranma was throwing dozens of punches per second as demonstrated by the battle vs the kissing skater and Akane was able to count every single punch when everyone else only saw a blur. After learning the Amaguriken Ranma was moving so fast that Akane could only see a blur which she thought of as one punch this implies a much greater speed (because if the speed was only say 3 times as fast Akane should have been able to still tell that they were many individual punches and not one punch though she would have no longer been able to count them.) During later story arcs Ranma gets more speed training and becomes even faster.
Ryoga and Cologne also agree with Akane. One commenting that did you think that a few hundred punches would even hurt me and the other one commenting that the speed training now pays off for him now.
Also we and any audience generally do not see Ranma's or those he's fighting's strikes instead we/they see after images or the final position of the arm or leg. (Examples kick done to Kuno, time Ranma did all those hits to the skater that kissed him, Ranma feeding people during the martial arts dining story arc, etc...)
The following has nothing to do with the speed of the technique. I just figured that since I started a topic on the Amagurinken I may as well put every thing that I know about it.
The credit for the below stuff goes mostly to Pale wolf and Obsidian Fox and was posted on Fukufics before it's crash.
The Amagurikin isn't really a special technique it's just a flurry of really high speed punches nor is throwing a large amount of high speed punches/kicks limited to Ranma. Ryoga for example has done the many punches moving in just blurs thing as well. Ex He does it to female Ranma in volume 23 p161 Ranma deflects all the punches and then Ranma's entire body becomes a blur surprising Ryoga and she kicks him in the head. Ranma occasionally does a flurry of high speeds kicks to.
Ranma has done the Amaguriken as a bunch of shallow punches good for damaging muscle, breaking bones near the skin, allows attacks to be chained easier, and keeps the opponent in place followed by a deep punch (which are good for damaging internal organs). Shallow does not mean weak though they just disperse less energy into the target at one time (Ranma's shallow would still be strong enough to punch a hole threw a regular person's chest). Ranma's deep punches are actually much stronger but they also send the opponent flying allowing them to recuperate and having to go hunt them down and are easier to dodge. Ranma could trap the opponent with a wall or a tree and use deep hits but because of the strength of the hits the wall or tree would just be destroyed (Ranma hit Ryoga into a wall, wall collapsed and both can punch through trees with ease) and unless the opponent is really dumb he will try to keep from being cornered. Though if your skilled enough to you could continuously hit him into walls and trees until you run out of them of course they would also have to be unable to flip in mid air and then bounce off the tree. Grappling the opponent and then punching him a lot or using the Amaguriken in this way is good for opponents who are tough enough to take your deep punches and you don't want to give them any time to recuperate and you don't want to cause serious possibly permanent injury (Targeting weaker spots such as the eye balls, punching their ears to cause pain, kicking them in the balls repeatedly, using a weapon like a sword, kicks to the spinal column, hitting them in vital spots, etc..). Though grappling could also back fire if the person your grappling with is skilled or strong enough to prevent you from getting good hits or keep you from effectively using your speed or strength.
Ranma has also used the Amaguriken to fill the air with punches using it this way is good because it is very hard to dodge and incredibly hard to block. Best solution would be to be fast enough to knock every punch away, get out of range which is hard, catch the fist which is even harder (and would probably just make Ranma start hitting you with his other fist), or go on the offensive (would recommend trying to kick him in the legs) and take hits.
Want to make Ranma more powerful without giving him a power up have Ranma do the Amaguriken holding a Knife, wearing some type of brass knuckles, or holding an object. That would easily multiply the damage done. Another way would be if two opponents were close enough to one another have Ranma bounce his fist between them this would cause a lot less energy to be wasted and allow Ranma to hit harder and even faster.

[Pale Wolf]

A: No way he's moving supersonic. I find it an exceptionally unlikely proposition.

Ranma's punches could push away enough air that sound can't travel through

Wrong!
Do you know what a sonic boom is?
Simply put, it's when an object breaks through the shock waves formed by its own passage. Said shock waves - the air itself - move at a maximum rate. Said rate is the speed of sound, because that's what sound is - vibrations in the air.
In other words, there is no way to push air faster than the speed of sound.

unless the opponent is really dumb

Which still leaves it an effective tactic against Ryouga

[antimatterenergy]

I find it very unlikely that Ranma is moving at supersonic speed as well simply because none of the feats in the manga actually require super sonic speed. Which was my main point for this thread that hundreds of punches per second could be done at subsonic speeds.
When I said move enough air that sound can't get through. I meant lets say Ranma is pounding his opponent up close moving at high end subsonic speeds. This would likely create a vacuum between Ranma and his opponent. If Ranma then speed up his punches into super sonic speeds for a short burst while in the vacuum that was created it would not cause a sonic boom because soundwaves do not travel through a vacuum. As you can see the above way does not require moving air faster than sound it just requires removing the air before going super sonic.

[Zwzn]

It is sort of a special technique. It might allow a person to move faster then sound, but not cause a sonic boom. I don't remember anyone being sure how many punches Ranma had thrown.

[Daniel Jess Gibson]

The problem with your 'no sonic boom' comment is that the sonic boom is due to a large object moving through the air. The crack of a whip or a rifle bullet is an example of a much smaller sonic boom.
The boom created by a fist moving back and forth through the same disturbed air would not easily be differentiable from the sound of the impact.
Simply put, even if there was a sonic boom, you probably couldn't hear it over the sound of the impacts.
Of course if you really want to get wacky, the pressurization/depressurization wave that creates a sonic boom is neutralized by the precise timing of the forward and reverse stroke, thereby destructively interfering with the resultant shockwaves.

[A.Nonymous]

The boom created by a fist moving back and forth through the same disturbed air would not easily be differentiable from the sound of the impact.

Durring his first meeting with Ranma, Kuno "struck" so fast he created shock waves with his sword and pitted a stone pillar. Ranma was able to kick him fast enough that noone was able to see him move, and accuratly enough to hit pressure points. Ranma was also able to strike Kuno fast and acurate enough to write on Kuno's forhead.
The truth is that Ranma already had such speed before he learned the Amaguriken. I think Ranma took a continuity hit in power when Cologne showed up. Talahashi didn't want to go the Dragonball route of ever spiraling power levels of "Look I'm a super duper saiyan level 38"

Of course if you really want to get wacky, the pressurization/depressurization wave that creates a sonic boom is neutralized by the precise timing of the forward and reverse stroke, thereby destructively interfering with the resultant shockwaves.

Actually, after ther first punch the technique creates a ki-stableized column of vacume between Ranma's fist and his target, thus on all subsiquent punches the speed of sound no longer has any bearing.

[Knight of L-sama]

Assuming Ranma has a reach of approximately 60cm (2 feet for the metrically challenged though it's probably a little high*) and working for a one-handed Amiguriken it means his fist would transverse 1.2 m forward and back for each punch. That means at Mach 1 he could launch just over 270 punches per second (276.075 punches per second to be precise).
Using those figures its possible for Ranma to throw 'hundreds' of punches per second and still not break the sound barrier. It's rather low values of hundreds admittedly, though its more impressive using both hands and the figure would be higher still for Ranma-chan with her shorter arm length.
*I'm basing that measurement off my own arm and the fact there doesn't seem to be much torso movement involved in the Amiguriken meaning the arm can't pull very far back past the shoulder (beyond that you need to starting turning at the waist). It's probaly high since there's a correlation between arm length and height (holding arms out straight at shoulder height the span from middle fingertip to middle fingertip is equal to your crown to toe height) and I don't think Ranma would be quite my own 181cm/~6 feet.

[Neko-]

Since the Amaguriken is a ki-based attack, who is to say the ki-flow doesn't extend a little bit beyond the arm, and it leaves a trail on the first (sub-sonic) punch?
As such, you'd get a corridor of ki between your fist and the target, and thus there is no air to actually be moved. The ki displaces the air. So punching through that corridor would mean there is no sonic boom.
Since ki is a fairly unknown concept, an d the application of regular natural laws upon anime such as Ranma somehow always is doomed to failure, this is a completely random explanation for exceeding the amount of punches per second that would cause a sonic boom, yet not resulting in a sonic boom.
Meh... Just grasping straws here. Like I said... It's anime, and thus has it's own laws of nature. So the sonic-barrier may not even exist in that world, or may be placed significantly higher

[lwf58]

The amaguriken isn't a ki-based attack. That's purely fanon. The manga simply describes it as a method of building up arm speed and precision in the practitioner. In fact, the Nichiezu never used it as an attack at all; to them, it was just a training method.
Does anyone recall any specific instances when Ranma called out the word as an attack? I don't remember if he ever did or not.

[Pale Wolf]

I'd suspect it is ki-based - not an attack, but just a speed technique. Just to achieve those levels of speed, some level of ki use seems to be a given. Not all ki is blasted out in kinetic streams, after all.
Heck, creating a vacuum tunnel in front to absolutely remove the problems of drag and air compressibility would be a reasonable theory to how it's done, and such a tunnel would help reduce the likelihood of getting burned - no air for the fire to feed on in the area, after all.

[TerraEpon]

Does anyone recall any specific instances when Ranma called out the word as an attack? I don't remember if he ever did or not.

Not sure about the manga, but he definatly does in the anime. For instance, in the one with the sisters, he calls it out when gets the kids to toss stuff at him.
-Joshua

[bissek]

Another thing ki would be needed for in the amaguriken would be reinforcing one's joints. It isn't too far fetched to assume that you could dislocate your shoulder or elbow by having your arm go through the sudden deceleration of an arm going forward at over a hundred miles an hour in one direction and then the same speed in the other direction a matter of milliseconds later. That kind of g-forces would be instantly lethal if done to any part of the body that contained a vital organ.
Even if you avoid dislocating anything, long term usage of the technique would cause severe joint problems when you get older, as the various strains add up. The fact that Cologne can do the technique and doesn't have severe joint problems at her age implies that she has some way strengthening a body part that should be near useless given the strain a warrior's lifestyle would inflict on it.

[bissek]

Let's do some math on this. Assume that from starting point to ending point on a strike is 1.2 meters. Also assume that Ranma throws 100 punches/second, or 10 milliseconds/punch. This means that to go from start to end takes 5 ms, or .005 seconds. Assume constant acceleration.
x=x(0) + v(0)*t + .5a*t^2.
1.2 = 0+0*.005 + .5*a*,005*.005
2.4=.000025a
a = 96,000 m/s/s = 9, 796 times the force of gravity. I don't think modern fighters are capable of doing 10g acceleration for more than a few seconds without killing the pilot, if that much.
At this point, his fist will be travelling at a*t = 480m/s.
I just looked it up, on a nonhumid day at 22 degrees C, or 71 degrees F, the speed of sound in air is 344.4m/s. If there isn't some sort of ki vacuum in place, then Ranma's fist just broke the sound barrier (Of course, without that ki vaccuum, the air resistance would set his arm on fire right about now).
Now, this calculation is for the initial punch. For all other punches you have to decelerate the fist on the return journey.
0 = 1.2 + 480*.005 + .5a*(.005)^2
-1.2 = 2.4 + .5a*(.005)^2
-3.6 = .5a*(.005)^2
-7.2 = .000025a
-288000 = a
a = 29,388 times the force of gravity.
The real equations have to be more complicated than this, as in order for the amaguriken to work, the fist must be at zero velocity at full extension, making the acceleration a periodic rather than a constant. This proves anitmatterenergy's theory that most of the punches in the amaguriken strikes are weak ones, because the force of a punch is directly proportional to the acceleration of the arm, and at the time of impact, Ranma's fist is slowing down and accelerating AWAY from its target, reducing the amount of force being directed at his opponent. Only in the last punch, when he doesn't need to decelerate his fist in order to chamber it for another strike does the full power of amaguriken speed come into effect.
It also proves my point about the amaguriken being potentially dangerous to one's body. While I don't think it ever gets mentioned in Ranma 1/2, in the final arc of Rurouni Kenshin the strain caused by ubertechniques on the user's body, especially when combined with the effects of old injuries, is a major plot point. In the scenario I have described, Ranma's arms have managed to achieve levels of acceleration the space shuttle couldn't match, or survive for that matter. For that matter, none of the spaceships of the Honor Harrington sci-fi novels could achieve a tenth of that acceleration without exploding, even with intertial compensators at max. The thought that you can do something like that without injuring your arm is ludicrous. I hope Ranma picked up the entire technique, including whatever ki process is used to strengthen the joints, during the Pheonix pill arc, or else he probably wont be able to so much as pick up a teacup by the time he's thirty.
Perhaps the joint-strengthening process is the true purpose of the amaguriken, in the same way that increased toughness is the true point of the breaking point.

[antimatterenergy]

lwf58- Ranma calls it out before he does it in volume 36 but he rarely bothers because it takes longer to say then it does to do. Though Ranma has demonstrated that sometimes he just likes calling something out ex. he once while throwing a spoon yells spoon fu on Happosai.
A.Nonymous - Ranma does go through further speed training in the manga. During the martial arts dining Ranma practices building up his speed.
bissek - the vacuum is not caused by ki. The vacuum is caused because Ranma and Kuno's punches cause pressure waves. Meaning that they push away the air. Eventually they will push all the air away from the area in front of them. A spot with no air is a vacuum.
Ranma does not necessarily have to ever stop moving he could use the bounce back from hitting the opponent/target to chamber his fist. Also Ranma doesn't have to decelerate because his arm can only go so far before it naturally bounces back (kind of like a rubber band) or gets pulled out of the socket.
Humans can survive for up to 80 seconds at 10 g acceleration before too much blood is pushed into the brain killing them. Can survive up to 40 g for less than .5 seconds. Ranma is clearly superhuman.
I seriously doubt that Ranma is pulling his arm back a full 1.2 meters for a few reasons. The main one being that it would make Ranma over 2 meters tall (9 feet) when the person earlier said 1.2 meters he meant counting both the forward and backward motion (60cm (.6m or 2 feet) one way) is unnecessary and adds extra strain to the joint and muscles. It would be much more practical to only pull the arm back around a foot. This puts a lot less strain on the body and it takes a lot less energy to pull back when you don't fully extend. (The amaguriken is a short range attack, unless your using the air pressure or vacuum that is created to do the attack).
I haven't taken a math or physics class in years but something about your calculations don't sit right with me. For starters if the speed of sound is (at 22 C, 0 humidity, sea level) 480 meters per second and he's doing 1.2 meter punches one way well 480/2.4 = 200 meaning even if he was pulling back a full 1.2 meters (which he's not) he could still do a full 199 punches before reaching the speed of sound.

[A.Nonymous]

Ranma does not necessarily have to ever stop moving he could use the bounce back from hitting the opponent/target to chamber his fist. Also Ranma doesn't have to decelerate because his arm can only go so far before it naturally bounces back (kind of like a rubber band) or gets pulled out of the socket.

The "bounce" is wasted energy (from Ranma's point of view) as it's energy that isn't going into damaging his opponent. Ranma would prefer it his fist stopped dead upon impact and he had to pull it back for the next strike.

Humans can survive for up to 80 seconds at 10 g acceleration before too much blood is pushed into the brain killing them. Can survive up to 40 g for less than .5 seconds. Ranma is clearly superhuman.

Then it's a good thing Ranma hasn't tried the technique with a head-butt. The truth is that whatever the acceleration Ranma generates with his punch pales in comparison to the deceleration/acceleration from when the punch strikes.

I haven't taken a math or physics class in years but something about your calculations don't sit right with me. For starters if the speed of sound is (at 22 C, 0 humidity, sea level) 480 meters per second and he's doing 1.2 meter punches one way well 480/2.4 = 200 meaning even if he was pulling back a full 1.2 meters (which he's not) he could still do a full 199 punches before reaching the speed of sound.

Yup, he's doubling things. But you're using a constant speed while he's dealing with the acceleration involved. What you should do is take the two extreme situations.
1) Full recoil (No damage to opponent)
Ranma's fist starts out at full speed upon recoil. Ranma has to accelerate his fist constantly for the full stroke to strike again. This would be 1.2 meters of acceleration per stroke
2) No recoil (All the power goes into damage)
Ranma has to accelerate his fist back from impact for one half the distance, and then accelerate in the opposite direction for the other half of the up stroke plus the full down stroke.
The answer is somewhere in between...
Personally I think the attack is like Kodachi's "thousand clubs" attack...Ranma has more than two fists.