Crystal Tokyo

[Tovath]

I hate to tell you this Shadell but Usagi as at least as dense as Ranma and even the nicest person can delude themselves.

[Pale Wolf]

Not by our standards. By their (demented morality) it is. Additionaly while it is not the best testimony, it is A testimony

'Not the best'... Considering how biased the source is, it may as well be thrown out.
And yes, I would throw out in the same sense anything that Wiseguy or the Black Mooners said about it as well.

additionaly I can't see Usagi being happy if everyone was a mindless zombie. She isn't a member of the Ranma cast who might delude themselves into thinking it was good, rather she is a genuinly nice person.

Tovath pretty much said it - you underestimate human delusion.

But what has to be skipped? It seems like a bad decision to skip certain material in favor of others without accepted standards as to what doesn't count.

Essentially, what I skipped was the softest evidence, so as to be able to stick with what all the hard facts were suggesting.

It doesn't bother to get more complex then that, so why should the logical picture of CT, which exists in that same world, get more complex then that?

Because we, the logical observers, have the broader perspective required to take in all the evidence and spin it to its reasonable conclusion.
This is not to say that Takeuchi's Crystal Tokyo is like this. However, unless we plan to keep all potential observation and development within Takeuchi's fairy-tale world (I don't, and bluntly concede that as long as we stick within that juvenile worldview juvenile and unreasonable things are going to happen - it's better than trying to think like Usagi), we have to take it out of that reality and into the real world - the one where things don't somehow just 'work out'.

Thus the most likely canonical CT would be the excessively juvinile concept of the perfect Utopia where everyone is happy, safe, and yet free at the same time.

While operating within those same juvenile constraints. But again, I prefer to take it out of the universe which is slanted towards that level. So we are, essentially, painting a more reasonable picture of Crystal Tokyo than what Takeuchi would have had us swallow.
Basically, we, as fanfic writers and general viewers, are allowed to be more mature than the source, and to apply that more mature perspective to the juvenile nature of the source.

as I can't really see Usagi turning humanity into zombies and then being content with it.

I can. Everyone's happy! Absolutely nothing's going wrong. What could possibly be wrong about it?
Just because the underlying nature is sinister, creepy, and generally disturbing doesn't mean she's in a position to see it. And, being the one who created the illusion, it will be perfect to her perception.

Also, she is shown as being a busy yet good leader.

Busy? Don't seem to recall this. Even so, there are a lot of things a leader is busy doing even if people never disagree - especially if she nerfed everyone's mental competence.
And good? That should tell ya right there that something changed in the fundamental nature of either (or both) Usagi herself, or humanity

[bissek]

Usagi is not the type who would ever accept the true workings of humanity. As Havelock Vetinari put it in the novel 'Guards! Guards!':
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."
He then goes on to discuss the fact that most evil stems from apathy rather than malice, and that while heroes are good at thwarting evil, they aren't very good at anything else. Villains have a plan to rule the world, it's part of the job description. Heros just find a way to save the world in the nick of time.
You can't create a utopia without rewriting human nature. And that is why Crystal Tokyo will never work out.

[Alathon]

What really boggles my mind is that so many people are convinced that the Senshi, and Usagi in specific, are completely incapable of growing up and maturing as people. Unlike everyone else in the universe.
This idea is implicit in all the "Usagi would make Crystal Tokyo a failure/dystopia/whatever beacuse she's xxxxxxx" claims.

[Shadell]

Usagi is not the type who would ever accept the true workings of humanity. As Havelock Vetinari put it in the novel 'Guards! Guards!':
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."
He then goes on to discuss the fact that most evil stems from apathy rather than malice, and that while heroes are good at thwarting evil, they aren't very good at anything else. Villains have a plan to rule the world, it's part of the job description. Heros just find a way to save the world in the nick of time.
You can't create a utopia without rewriting human nature. And that is why Crystal Tokyo will never work out.

Terry Pratchett; a brilliant man, however that is not the world of SM. And therin lies the flaw with trying to make CT more realistic. To honestly do it you'd have to make the whole series more realistic. Namely the enemies would probably think they were right morally, and instead of laughing maniacly at all their plans, find a way to justify them. The heroes would become stressed out because they couldn't save everyone all the time. CT would be grossly different if it happened in a more realistic world.
However if you wanted to make CT more realistic without makingthe series different, you would indeed have a rather distorted civilization.

[antimatterenergy]

Wait so the villains in sailormoon don't think their in the moral right? Since when. Beryl thought that she was the rightful ruler of earth. Galaxia and Pharoah 90 didn't want to rule the earth. One wanted star crystals to further her own power and then was going to destroy the world for the hell of it the other one was going to eat the world. The blackmoon family thought they wear in the moral right by destroying Sailormoon therefore preventing crystal Tokyo and there exile. So what if they laughed menacingly and didn't bother giving reasons to justify their plans they thought themselve so in the right that they had no reason to justify them.
Why would the hero's (sailor scouts) become stressed out. They always managed to protect everyone and win in the end. We do see them stressed some times though like when Sailormoon lost her broach and the enemy took it. They have no real reason to be overly stressed beyond being in life or death situations because nothing really bad happened that wasn't soon undone.

[Shadell]

Wait so the villains in sailormoon don't think their in the moral right? Since when. Beryl thought that she was the rightful ruler of earth. Galaxia and Pharoah 90 didn't want to rule the earth. One wanted star crystals to further her own power and then was going to destroy the world for the hell of it the other one was going to eat the world. The blackmoon family thought they wear in the moral right by destroying Sailormoon therefore preventing crystal Tokyo and there exile. So what if they laughed menacingly and didn't bother giving reasons to justify their plans they thought themselve so in the right that they had no reason to justify them.

Every villain was completely insane, yet managed to retain a personal army of mostly intelligent youma. None used anything RESEMBLING strategy, and we're expected to believe that no one tried to poison them and take their place? We've seen evidence that youma are not always completely subservient... So why was there no treason amidst the ranks? even with the shear power difference, poisoning or backstabbing wouldn't be that hard with such a stupid leader.

Why would the hero's (sailor scouts) become stressed out. They always managed to protect everyone and win in the end. We do see them stressed some times though like when Sailormoon lost her broach and the enemy took it. They have no real reason to be overly stressed beyond being in life or death situations because nothing really bad happened that wasn't soon undone.

Because the idea of fighting against forces that make mortal men quake in terror is inherently stressful. Given how close they come to death on a daily basis, it seems odd that they are able to maintain a normal personality without any real paranoia or pschological issues would be just a tad abnormal.

[Knight of L-sama]

And also that any individual, let alone Usagi, is already inadequate to wave a crystal and make a utopia, because no matter what, when you come down to it, any utopia has to either alter aspects of human nature, or remove the people who possess them. And thus it's something I would be willing to throw my life against.

So basically the entire concept of a utopia (not just Crystal Tokyo) exceeds your suspension of disbelief?
That doesn't mean however that one can't exist in a fictional canon. The fact that you can't believe in it makes your position inherently untenable since by that admission no counter arguement is sufficient to convince you.
Your position makes an interesting what-if but your insistence that it must be so in canon is based on a flawed premise.

[Pale Wolf]

yet managed to retain a personal army of mostly intelligent youma.

I've always remembered the monster-of-the-year as being even dumber than rocks, their bosses, or Usagi.

So basically the entire concept of a utopia (not just Crystal Tokyo) exceeds your suspension of disbelief?

Essentially true. Crystal Tokyo's especially messy with the magic rock rewriting human psychology, though.

That doesn't mean however that one can't exist in a fictional canon. The fact that you can't believe in it makes your position inherently untenable since by that admission no counter arguement is sufficient to convince you.

Nope. Quite the contrary. Any counter-argument is sufficient to convince me. They just have to get around the ludicrously-failed grasp of human (or anything) nature that is required to make SM canon happen.
Fundamentally, the problems - the things that keep the now from being a utopia - are rooted in the people. Without changing the people, such a utopia is impossible. And, actually changing the people, ie with that rock, is the most thoroughly disgusting act I can imagine.

Your position makes an interesting what-if but your insistence that it must be so in canon is based on a flawed premise.

I'm not saying it 'must be so in canon'. I'm saying that the evidence, brought out of the fairy-tale SM-verse and into a real-world setting, suggests it to be the case. In fact, suggests it so strongly that I find it difficult to believe otherwise.
But we have to operate in a real-world setting. We have to be better. And about all the debate that can be done while operating within the SM-verse rules is prancing around with flowers and pointing out exactly what happened, Usagi is always right, etc etc. Not something I want to waste my spare time on, but feel free.

[Shadell]

I've always remembered the monster-of-the-year as being even dumber than rocks, their bosses, or Usagi.

A few where intelligent. That water one in the first season seemed to have a brain, and a few generals would have acted a lot less loyal then they were.
Also if we're going realistic, why didn't the goverment intervene at all with the monster attacks going on?

[Pale Wolf]

That water one in the first season seemed to have a brain

That's true. The plan in that episode was hers, if I remember right, and would've worked if not for the scriptwriters putting the Senshi on the boat (what're the odds, eh?).
I think her name was Tethys.

Also if we're going realistic, why didn't the goverment intervene at all with the monster attacks going on?

A 'lost episode' where they tried to confront 'em and got beaten down? Could account for a more laid-back, 'let the senshi handle it while we research the problem and bring in the JSDF if it gets too bad' approach.

[EdenB]

Also if we're going realistic, why didn't the goverment intervene at all with the monster attacks going on?

In all cases that I can remember off-hand, the monsters didn't appear as monsters, be transformed into monsters or be summoned at all until at least one Senshi was there or very nearby anyway.
By the time any sort of special defence force could respond (has to actually be noticed by someone who'd call police instead of just running, who'd transfer it to them, then they'd have to get ready and get there, etc) , the Senshi would've destroyed it/made it human again anyway in most cases.

[Tovath]

I have two ideas for why the goverment didn't do any thing
1 They didn't belive that there was any thing going on. A train turned into a monster and actacked me and these girls in short skirts beat it up sounds like the raveings of a crazy person.
2 The goverment knows that the senshi are better able to defeat the villians plus if they pubicly admit to the exsictence of the senshi and yoma then there would be panic.

[Shadell]

In all cases that I can remember off-hand, the monsters didn't appear as monsters, be transformed into monsters or be summoned at all until at least one Senshi was there or very nearby anyway.
By the time any sort of special defence force could respond (has to actually be noticed by someone who'd call police instead of just running, who'd transfer it to them, then they'd have to get ready and get there, etc) , the Senshi would've destroyed it/made it human again anyway in most cases.

Right... So despite media knowledge that senshi go around fighting monsters around Tokyo, and civilian lives are often endangered, the goverment is going to do nothing, soley because they have trouble responding at a fast enough speed. Additionaly most youma deal in high amounts of energy. We are supposed to believe that there is no way science can detect that energy, and that the goverment wouldn't make contact with the senshi at all.

[Shadell]

I have two ideas for why the goverment didn't do any thing
1 They didn't belive that there was any thing going on. A train turned into a monster and actacked me and these girls in short skirts beat it up sounds like the raveings of a crazy person.
2 The goverment knows that the senshi are better able to defeat the villians plus if they pubicly admit to the exsictence of the senshi and yoma then there would be panic.

For 1, The media has footage of the senshi... Venus has several video games out and is a media hero. Several people are routinely attacked, many see the monsters and remember them. Also generals have called out the senshi/made a REALLY obvious presence, and no one has reacted at all.
As for 2, the goverment sees an unaligned group of vigilante people fighting monsters in the streets of tokyo and their responce is... "Oh they seem to be doing a good job, lets not investigate at all and just leave them to it" Seems a little pathetic of a reaction.
Not believable. Rather the military would be tracking the senshi.