Crystal Tokyo Revisited

[Comartemis]

Aaah, I knew something was missing around here, and now I know what: it's been too quiet without Zwzn around.

*Puts on his debating hat*

It's call a time loop.

The existence of the time loop is not in question, Zwzn, it's how the loop started. You seem to think the loop started when NQS sent her "agents" back in time to make sure CT comes to pass. But if CT already exists, then why would you send people back in time in the first place? At best they're going to waste a trip through the portal before coming right back again, but at worst they could do something to catastrophically alter the entire timeline. Imagine what could have happened if the gun Chibi-Usa pointed at Usagi in her debut episode hadn't been fake, just for starters.

NQS didn't have anything to do with the time loop, at least not at first. Chibi-Usa went back in time of her own volition to get Sailor Moon to help NQS, and Rubeus and friends followed her. The loop wasn't completed until the Senshi came forward in time to help out with CT.

Once Chibi changes the timeline, then meddling with the timeline becomes necessary as a form of damage control; the changes to the timeline don't just stop after a certain point, everything builds upon everything else. Relationships may or may not evolve from a chance meeting, battles could proceed differently because someone wasn't where they were supposed to be, and eventually everything builds up to the point where the climactic battles could swing in either direction. Here the "agents" become necessary to make sure the bad guys don't pull a coup de grace and conquer the world. And even with their assistance, it's often a very close thing: Saturn's awakening, anyone?

You only test something when you don't know how strong something is.

This might make sense ordinarily, but unfortunately Chibi-Usa went and screwed up the timeline in ways that Endymion can't predict, making the test of love necessary to ensure that that, at least, is still the same.

The problem with 1 is the Neo king stated the DMF's ancestors had no powers.

Uh... no? Endy never said anything of the sort. He only describes them as "evil beings" who "wanted to conquer the world". Given that every other "evil being" in the series has had some form of dark/corruptive power, it's a foregone conclusion that these beings would be the same. Really Zwzn, are you so desperate to prove me wrong that you're willing to make up blatantly false information and pass it off as fact?

[P.H. Wise]

Oh jeez, not this again...
Now where did I put my tinfoil hat?

[lwf58]

Yep. Keep it polite, or I'll have to put a stop to it.

[Tovath]

Aaah, I knew something was missing around here, and now I know what: it's been too quiet without Zwzn around.

Yes a good debate can be fun

Not just any child will be the Chibi she has come to be the one she has shown herself to rather be dead then live without.

Then you'd better explain the birds and the bees to Naoko, Zwzn, because all signs point to Chibi-Usa being a sperm cell that is destined for one of Usagi's eggs. Biological processes have nothing to do with the rise and fall of great kingdoms. I dare you to try to rationalize that kind of connection.

Com where genes can effect who a person is, The environment is always a bigger factorin a person's development. This means if Chibi-Usa is born to people who are not the King and Queen (because say Crystal Tokyo doesn't exist) then she will be a different person. That is simaley a fact that is

surrported by lot of research and in fact a whole branch of psychology has been based on this fact. Look up the work of B.F. Skinner

The existence of the time loop is not in question, Zwzn, it's how the loop started. You seem to think the loop started when NQS sent her "agents" back in time to make sure CT comes to pass. But if CT already exists, then why would you send people back in time in the first place? At best they're going to waste a trip through the portal before coming right back again, but at worst they could do something to catastrophically alter the entire timeline. Imagine what could have happened if the gun Chibi-Usa pointed at Usagi in her debut episode hadn't been fake, just for starters.

NQS didn't have anything to do with the time loop, at least not at first. Chibi-Usa went back in time of her own volition to get Sailor Moon to help NQS, and Rubeus and friends followed her. The loop wasn't completed until the Senshi came forward in time to help out with CT.

Once Chibi changes the timeline, then meddling with the timeline becomes necessary as a form of damage control; the changes to the timeline don't just stop after a certain point, everything builds upon everything else. Relationships may or may not evolve from a chance meeting, battles could proceed differently because someone wasn't where they were supposed to be, and eventually everything builds up to the point where the climactic battles could swing in either direction. Here the "agents" become necessary to make sure the bad guys don't pull a coup de grace and conquer the world. And even with their assistance, it's often a very close thing: Saturn's awakening, anyone?

And how would anything that Chibi-Usa did effect Pharaoh 90; He had already started his plans. And even if Chibi-Usa somehow messed things up that badly why would they let her go back in time again?

[CRBWildcat]

And how would anything that Chibi-Usa did effect Pharaoh 90; He had already started his plans. And even if Chibi-Usa somehow messed things up that badly why would they let her go back in time again?

The funny thing with time travel is that it's hard to say what'll happen. Make a decision, and it'll have wacked-out consequences that could be the exact opposite of what anyone expects. Who's to say that something bad would happen? For that matter, who's to say that something good would happen (I'm not counting Pluto in this, just for the record)? And who's to say that things will just go along their normal course?

...Eeesh. Time paradoxes are weird that way.

[Comartemis]

And how would anything that Chibi-Usa did effect Pharaoh 90; He had already started his plans. And even if Chibi-Usa somehow messed things up that badly why would they let her go back in time again?

To rehash what Wildcat's already said, there's no way of knowing how events will play out once the timeline changes. The smallest of changes can have the most massive impact when you're screwing with time. Sending Chibi-Usa back in time would have been a form of damage control after the first incident; she's there to screw things back in the right general direction.

Let's take your typical youma battle, for instance, and make a hypothetical situation out of it. The monster shows up and starts draining people, the Senshi respond and start to get their asses kicked. However, Chibi-Usa spilled the beans on who her dad is (let's assume for the sake of argument that she knows Mamoru's her dad), leaving Tux-boy half-way across town in his apartment, brooding over the implications of this revelation. He arrives just in the nick of time, only to begin making his speech from a tree branch that can't support his weight. He could have chosen more carefully if he'd had more time to show up, but he didn't: the branch breaks, Moon's concentration slips away from her opponent for an instant, and the monster takes advantage of that slip to plunge a clawed hand into Usagi's chest, crushing her heart into so much pulp.

And the changes needn't even be that dramatic. Like I said, just meeting or not meeting someone at a certain time and place can influence your relationship with that person; what if Chibi-Usa hadn't been around to introduce the Senshi to Hotaru? The Outers wouldn't have been nearly so willing to let her live if Moon and Chibi-Moon hadn't been defending her as strongly as they did.

And if that's not evidence enough for you, then consider this: if Chibi-Usa hadn't been around, who would have provided a heart crystal pure enough to power Nine's manifestation? The only other exceptionally pure heart that I can name off the top of my head is Usagi's.

Actually, come to think of it, the time loop presents NQS with a unique opportunity to change the future for the better while at the same time making sure it doesn't get any worse. The fact that Chibi-Usa didn't recognize Hotaru when they first met might well mean that Saturn is either dead or sealed away in CT as a result of the events of the original timeline. Sending Chibi-Usa back during S could very well have been part of NQS's plan to improve the future by connecting Saturn to the Senshi and stopping her destruction at the hands of the Outers or an extremely reluctant Sailor Moon.

[Tovath]

And how would anything that Chibi-Usa did effect Pharaoh 90; He had already started his plans. And even if Chibi-Usa somehow messed things up that badly why would they let her go back in time again?

The funny thing with time travel is that it's hard to say what'll happen. Make a decision, and it'll have wacked-out consequences that could be the exact opposite of what anyone expects. Who's to say that something bad would happen? For that matter, who's to say that something good would happen (I'm not counting Pluto in this, just for the record)? And who's to say that things will just go along their normal course?

...Eeesh. Time paradoxes are weird that way.

True and yes they are, but knowing the people involved can you think of any way that things could be changed?

[CRBWildcat]

First, watch the quotes there, Tovath.

Second, I don't "know the characters" as well as some others here do; my first-hand knowledge stops at the end of SM-R, with everything else after that being second-hand.

Third, I think Art's already taken care of the example for me.

[Zwzn]

It's call a time loop.

The existence of the time loop is not in question, Zwzn, it's how the loop started. You seem to think the loop started when NQS sent her "agents" back in time to make sure CT comes to pass. But if CT already exists, then why would you send people back in time in the first place? At best they're going to waste a trip through the portal before coming right back again, but at worst they could do something to catastrophically alter the entire timeline. Imagine what could have happened if the gun Chibi-Usa pointed at Usagi in her debut episode hadn't been fake, just for starters.

NQS didn't have anything to do with the time loop, at least not at first. Chibi-Usa went back in time of her own volition to get Sailor Moon to help NQS, and Rubeus and friends followed her. The loop wasn't completed until the Senshi came forward in time to help out with CT.

Once Chibi changes the timeline, then meddling with the timeline becomes necessary as a form of damage control; the changes to the timeline don't just stop after a certain point, everything builds upon everything else. Relationships may or may not evolve from a chance meeting, battles could proceed differently because someone wasn't where they were supposed to be, and eventually everything builds up to the point where the climactic battles could swing in either direction. Here the "agents" become necessary to make sure the bad guys don't pull a coup de grace and conquer the world. And even with their assistance, it's often a very close thing: Saturn's awakening, anyone?

First off the thing about time loops is they have no begining or end.

Secondly there is evidence the Crystal Tokyo senshi wanted Chibi to take the Silver Crystal, and go back in time like she did.

They gave Chibi a key to the case the silver crystal was locked in.

They put nothing in Chibi's way to stop her from getting the silver crystal.

They made it so Chibi could easily get to the time gate.

They let Chibi know where the time gate was, and what it did.

They kept Chibi in the palace, and only let her have contact with her mother, father, inner senshi, the Moon cats, and Pluto. They controled every aspect of her child hood.

There is even the possibilty that they made it so Chibi could not remember certain things.

You only test something when you don't know how strong something is.

This might make sense ordinarily, but unfortunately Chibi-Usa went and screwed up the timeline in ways that Endymion can't predict, making the test of love necessary to ensure that that, at least, is still the same.

You are ignoring the evidence he wanted Chibi to go back in time, and even if Chibi-Usa went and screwed up the timeline the Neo king still would have known the answer before he did it.

The problem with 1 is the Neo king stated the DMF's ancestors had no powers.

Uh... no? Endy never said anything of the sort. He only describes them as "evil beings" who "wanted to conquer the world". Given that every other "evil being" in the series has had some form of dark/corruptive power, it's a foregone conclusion that these beings would be the same. Really Zwzn, are you so desperate to prove me wrong that you're willing to make up blatantly false information and pass it off as fact?

"Correct. The people (beings)who lived there had changed into lifeforms that possessed some peculiar (supernatural, psi) powers, while we knew nothing about (this). And those beings are the Clan (family) of the Dark Moon, the Black Moon!"

The Neo king out right stated that the people that grew up on Nemesis had some how gained powers that the people sent to Nemesis did not have before.

[Zwzn]

And how would anything that Chibi-Usa did effect Pharaoh 90; He had already started his plans. And even if Chibi-Usa somehow messed things up that badly why would they let her go back in time again?

Neo-Queen Serenity sent Chibi-Usa back in time in sewason three knowing what Chibi-Usa would do, and everything went as planned. There are at least two peaces of evidence to this. Chibi-Usa's comment that her mother had a cup just like the grail, and Neon Queen Serenity saying that Chibi-Usa would make a friend she would always care about.

Without Chibi-Usa going back in time the events of the series would be very different.

The funny thing with time travel is that it's hard to say what'll happen. Make a decision, and it'll have wacked-out consequences that could be the exact opposite of what anyone expects. Who's to say that something bad would happen? For that matter, who's to say that something good would happen (I'm not counting Pluto in this, just for the record)? And who's to say that things will just go along their normal course?

...Eeesh. Time paradoxes are weird that way.

Pluto has three jobs in the anime:

1) Guard the Gates of Time
Pretty straight forward

2) Protect Chibi-Usa
This means Pluto is watching Chibi-Usa

3) Correct errrors in the time stream
This means she knows some how what is suppose to happen


For the record the senshi know everything they need to complete the time loops.

They know:

where to send Chibi-Usa

how to raise Chibi-Usa

where to raise Chibi-Usa

who Chibi-Usa is suppose to meet,

what Chibi-Usa is suppose to know.

[CRBWildcat]

Like I said, I wasn't counting Pluto. And in any event, I restate my point that anything can happen. Just because they know doesn't mean jack, queen, or king if something comes up that wasn't part of the trig equation.

[claymade]

They gave Chibi a key to the case the silver crystal was locked in.

They put nothing in Chibi's way to stop her from getting the silver crystal.

Nothing? There was something in her way--the case you just admitted existed. Their one stupid move was giving her a generic AI-swiss-army-magic that turned out to be powerful enough to bypass that layer of security.

They made it so Chibi could easily get to the time gate.

They let Chibi know where the time gate was, and what it did.

They kept Chibi in the palace, and only let her have contact with her mother, father, inner senshi, the Moon cats, and Pluto. They controled every aspect of her child hood.

In which episodes do we learn these supposed measures that they took?

First off the thing about time loops is they have no begining or end.

As I said above, that kind of loop is only possible if time travel cannot change the future--in which case any such time loop is effectively an instance of capital-D Destiny that cannot be avoided either.

However, if time travel can result in a different future than the future of the traveler, then by its very nature it can't require loop closure--since that would be impossible. The future required to actually close the loop end to end would no longer exist. (Not to mention the question of "when" the universe supposedly decides to "snap back" if the future people take "too long" in sending someone back to try to fulfill the loop.)

Anyway, since SM time travel pretty clearly does change the future, appeals to such eternal, immutable loops are not particularly believable. Even if NQS did have a plan of some kind in sending Chibi Usa back in S, it wasn't to preserve her past status quo.

The Neo king out right stated that the people that grew up on Nemesis had some how gained powers that the people sent to Nemesis did not have before.

Yes, they gained "some peculiar powers". At the risk of stating the obvious, that in no way, shape or form means that they had no powers to begin with. It means that they got new ones from Death Phantom (explaining how they could win in the rematch where they'd gotten beat down by the Senshi before).

And, as I said above, he also says nothing whatsoever about how many of the evil beings "appeared" either.

And--as if that weren't enough--quite contrary to your point 3, he refers to "many warriors" being killed in the second Dark Moon attack. Thus relying on the "fact" that CT had no defense forces becomes even more hard to swallow.

There are at least two peaces of evidence to this. Chibi-Usa's comment that her mother had a cup just like the grail...

Uh, even if it actually was the Grail, doesn't that mean the exact opposite of what you're trying to advocate? It would mean that in NQS's past, the final Grail showdown didn't happen like it did in S.

Which, indeed, would fit quite well. But not with the conspiracy theories.

[Tovath]

Actually, come to think of it, the time loop presents NQS with a unique opportunity to change the future for the better while at the same time making sure it doesn't get any worse. The fact that Chibi-Usa didn't recognize Hotaru when they first met might well mean that Saturn is either dead or sealed away in CT as a result of the events of the original timeline. Sending Chibi-Usa back during S could very well have been part of NQS's plan to improve the future by connecting Saturn to the Senshi and stopping her destruction at the hands of the Outers or an extremely reluctant Sailor Moon.

If this is true then why would Pluto say that there is no other way to save the world other then killing Hotaru? One would think that NQs would tell Pluto of her plan.

[Comartemis]

If this is true then why would Pluto say that there is no other way to save the world other then killing Hotaru? One would think that NQs would tell Pluto of her plan.

How can you be certain that she didn't say that just to provoke a suitable reaction from Moon?

[claymade]

How can you be certain that she didn't say that just to provoke a suitable reaction from Moon?

Eh, I don't find those kind of Xantos Roulettes on Pluto's part particularly plausible, just because of how utterly arbitrary they end up being.

If I were going to ascribe some larger plan to Moon sending Chibi back in S, I'd say that it was, in fact, an end run around Pluto herself. In other words, Pluto did want to keep things the way they'd been in her past--so NQS used the one person that Pluto apparently can't say "no" to, and slipped her back as a sneaky ringer to swing things in a different direction.

Plus, Pluto and NQS butting heads is, in fact, canonical. Recall that at their first (for certain values of "first") meeting, Pluto flat-out attacks Moon, making only the excuse that "Sailor Moon has always been troublesome to her."

So yes, I think it is in fact quite easily possible that they'd have strong differences of opinion as to whether time should in fact be changed to try and save Hotaru.