How powerful are the Senshi?

[FOG3]

Magic don't exist in real life, period. So what your point about real life?

What's my point let's see, you _need_ the power off those feats, but the power figures you're obtaining with the usual Janitor=007 level of embellishment are based on certain assumptions. Certain assumptions no sane human being would grant you when it is so utterly and blatantly obvious the properties of said materials, which your feat relies entirely upon don't even begin to theoretically potentially meet up.
Explain to me why that problem with the _core_ of your position is somehow negated by going "Waah but magic doesn't exist." On that point actually
*A large mob of Wiccans appear out of nowhere and thrash the heretic.*
Word of advice, don't go making statements that could piss off people in weird religions. They tend to be a little more uptight about such things.

Sorry to disappoint you, but they generate SSH and MT almost instantly. In contrast with fics when they need some time to do this. So Ranma just don’t have any time to dodge SSH.

Translation: I don't have a clue what Foggy's talking about, but I'll pretend I defeated his point.
Reality check buddy, the 21' drill involves something that triggers and travels a hell of a lot faster then your ki techniques. Try doing some research to buy a clue about what they're talking about before you start claiming to know better then the person's point you're addressing next time. You can cry till the cows come home it doesn't change the fact Ranma was close enough to more then compensate for any difference between a straight draw, and a pratically identical maneuver to assume a Shi Shi Ha-do-ken firing stance.

Oh? Someone turn off BT? Or they lost ability to destroy wall? Rip poles from ground? And i never see any significant ability to "modify the battlefield to their advantage" in Senshi case. They just jumping around and try to hit their enemy with wild fire.

Did you flunk basic tactics? How does terrain contribute towards victory?
It contributes by arranging things such that you gain local superiority based on the surroundings. Does any of your whining accomplish this goal? No. Does Shabon Spray? Hell yes. Don't try to lecture someone who considers Sun Tzu and Clausewitz recreational reading, with this kind of half brained garbage.

PS. FOG3, if you like Senshi better that NWC, fine. But try to be a little more objective.

Okay Mr "I'm Objective" seems as how you're so hot on Ranma and crew being more durable then your average bear here's a little challenge for you. In that episode Wolf likes to bring up regarding the power of Rei in First Season Rei ends up slapping a ward on Jadeites back that results in him getting run over by a jumbo jet at take off speed.
That means a jet liner massing over 180 metric tons, going at 160-180 knots. The result was Jadeite was injured in the "this is going to hurt in the morning" sense of the word. Even with the Janitor->007 level of embellishment on Ranma I don't see one incident that even comes close in terms of pure physical punishment. So I challenge you to provide one.
Of course, I will simply maintain a little smile at the fact that the Sailor Moon fans are extremely modest about the capabilities of their players, while the Ranma 1/2 side finds it necessary to embellish things to their limits. For that in of itself is a statement about who wins this in a straight up fight.

Not hard to explain. It's not as if Ryouga needs to do the whole twirl-and-pose routine each time he wants to fire off a SSH. You occasionally see a bit of a lead time for the first one, as he's working himself into a depressed state from a non-depressed one (like in the mushroom arc) but once he's there he seems able to toss 'em off as easy as just thrusting out his hands. There doesn't even seem to be a special stance required or anything--Ranma just throws one over his shoulder at Genma, almost accidentally. Heck, even the hand position doesn't seem to matter--it literally can be thrown from a simple punch--that's how quick it is to launch.
This is most obvious from Ranma's recollection of the fight. The entire problem was that Ryouga could fire SSHs too rapidly for him to ever get within striking distance.

The 21' drill is a police officer training drill illustrating the fact that a guy with a knife can reliably close and stab a guy with a gun before the guy with the gun can draw and fire, even if the guy with the gun is expecting it starting at a distance of 21 feet. It should be obvious that is doesn't really matter whether the guy doing the rushing has a knife or is barehanded. Your diatribe does nothing whatsoever to change that, period. If anything it merely reinforces _my_ point while making the one you're attempting to make with it look more stupid. Ranma was starting at like 10' not 21'.
It figures that you'd make a point to piss on the Law Enforcement Officers training regimens, for the hell of it. While trying to hide behind the concept of crossover writing when the stuff you quote in an attempt to"address" refers to under deathmatch conditions.

Oh, I myself doubt Ranma's going to be able to out-blast a Senshi. Still, ability to unload destructive energy at your foe isn't the absolute be-all and end-all of combat.

Make my day.

[Heaven's Deamon]

Um, fog, this is just IMO, but you might want to be a little less offensive in your replys as it seems to be getting a little too close to flaming as it is.

Sorry, don't understand it at all. Or, more precisely, i understand words but can't grasp the meaning...

I think what he meant was that where as magic/ki are used as something that "builds" on reality in some way, such as making someone stronger than they would be normally, or allowing them to throw fireballs or lightning bolts, examples of things like the "heart grab" show a lack of knowledge on reality, in refrence to the amount of force that would be needed to break through the ribcage in the first place. Though I could be wrong on this.

[lwf58]

Having gone over the previous posts in this thread, I have to come to this conclusion.
Fog3, this last post of yours has just crossed over the line into flaming, and was completely unwarranted. There were no personal comments directed at you in Climhazard's posts, and his arguments were reasonable and backed up by references to the two shows. His questions to you were also reasonably polite in the way they were phrased.
You answered with lines like...

Don't try to lecture someone who considers Sun Tzu and Clausewitz recreational reading, with this kind of half brained garbage.
Did you flunk basic tactics?
Okay Mr "I'm Objective" seems as how you're so hot on Ranma
Your diatribe does nothing whatsoever
It figures that you'd make a point to piss on the Law Enforcement Officers training regimens

...which are all very plainly personal attacks, and prohibited in this forum in rule 1-E.
You just earned yourself a one-week tempban, but I'll give you a chance to apologize first before having it processed, if you feel up to it. If you cannot find it in yourself to apologize, we will impose the ban and you won't be expected to eat crow. However, no matter what, a repeat performance of this kind will make the ban permanent. You have until this evening to decide.

[Cheb]

The 21' drill is a police officer training drill illustrating the fact that a guy with a knife can reliably close and stab a guy with a gun before the guy with the gun can draw and fire, even if the guy with the gun is expecting it starting at a distance of 21 feet. It should be obvious that is doesn't really matter whether the guy doing the rushing has a knife or is barehanded. Your diatribe does nothing whatsoever to change that, period.

The problem Ryouga did already stand in the ready position for throwing SSH - which more likely corresponds a guy with gun drawn and off the safety lock.
Also, the blast is almost a meter wide when it reaches Ranma - too big to dodge.

, the 21' drill involves something that triggers and travels a hell of a lot faster then your ki techniques.

Travels yes. Triggers...? I doubt. The martial artist's reaction is more often superhuman than not. The alert martial artist is equal to a guy with his gun drawn. And it's questionable who of these two will manage to aim and "fire" first.

I think what he meant was that where as magic/ki are used as something that "builds" on reality in some way, such as making someone stronger than they would be normally, or allowing them to throw fireballs or lightning bolts,

The amplification factor for Ranma manga (calculated from the size of the rocks thrown and other feats) is 50x. Which really means Ranma could lift cars, shatter brick walls with his forehead and break free being tied in iron chains and buried 2 meters underground. The manga is highly consistent in this regard.

as how you're so hot on Ranma and crew being more durable then your average bear.

They are. (at least in the manga).

That means a jet liner massing over 180 metric tons,

How much of these are supported by the front chassis?

The result was Jadeite was injured in the "this is going to hurt in the morning" sense of the word. Even with the Janitor->007 level of embellishment on Ranma I don't see one incident that even comes close in terms of pure physical punishment.

There is none. But that just proves that Jadeite was a tough guy and SM is very, very lucky she didn't have to fight him to the end.

[Climhazard]

Explain to me why that problem with the _core_ of your position is somehow negated by going "Waah but magic doesn't exist." On that point actually

My point that anime and manga universe’s not a real life. And try to power down one pack of characters just because they contradict with real life kinda useless. Because in their reality it work that way. This is canon. Deal with it.

Reality check buddy, the 21' drill involves something that triggers and travels a hell of a lot faster then your ki techniques.

Oh? You know MT and SSH speed? Can explain how you obtain it?

You can cry till the cows come home it doesn't change the fact Ranma was close enough to more then compensate for any difference between a straight draw, and a pratically identical maneuver to assume a Shi Shi Ha-do-ken firing stance.

Have some troubles with understanding it, so answer may be a little strange.
When he first time fight with Ryoga he know nothing about SSH. And he run directly into it. Of course he doesn’t able to dodge.
And Ryoga need only a three frames to generate SSH. And he have a head start.

That means a jet liner massing over 180 metric tons, going at 160-180 knots. The result was Jadeite was injured in the "this is going to hurt in the morning" sense of the word. Even with the Janitor->007 level of embellishment on Ranma I don't see one incident that even comes close in terms of pure physical punishment. So I challenge you to provide one.

First of all. IMO you forgot about lift that wings provide. And you said it yourself “jet at take off speed.”. Second. How much of this weight supported by front chassis? After you give me this info I start to look.

[lwf58]

Time is now up for Fog3 to reply to my message. He is tempbanned until March 6th.
Until then, replies to his messages are pointless, as he will be unable to answer them.

[Pale Wolf]

There are different kinds of fights. The fact that an attack might not be useful in a fistfight (as above) doesn't mean that it wouldn't be useful in a magical shelling contest.

Even a short charge time can render an attack useless for magical mudslinging.

Uh... In Ranmaversum this is A) Possible. B) Ryu almost successed in this.

Since Takahashi has never bothered to offer any kind of explanation as to how it suddenly became physically possible, I'm going to simply state that the line has to be hyperbole - as I just said.
Because any of the mechanisms by which it could be achieved mean Ryu would have had vastly different and more dangerous abilities, and would have used them.

Sorry, don't understand it at all. Or, more precisely, i understand words but can't grasp the meaning...

This is about as simple as I can go:
Magic and ki are added on to reality. It doesn't break physics to have a human being with a mechanism capable of moving them at the speed of sound, it only breaks with what we've seen.
The points you are trying to defend have nothing to do with magic/ki. They're because the artist's understanding of reality was flawed. And really, they're rather embarassing to look at.

I think what he meant was that where as magic/ki are used as something that "builds" on reality in some way, such as making someone stronger than they would be normally, or allowing them to throw fireballs or lightning bolts, examples of things like the "heart grab" show a lack of knowledge on reality, in refrence to the amount of force that would be needed to break through the ribcage in the first place. Though I could be wrong on this.

Basically correct. Though the issue with the heart grab is more that Takahashi's apparently granting Ryu enough physical force to blow straight through bone and then never having him use it.

How much of these are supported by the front chassis?

Presumably half.

There is none. But that just proves that Jadeite was a tough guy and SM is very, very lucky she didn't have to fight him to the end.

I find it certainly at least indicates that that is the level of taking and dealing of punishment that the Sailor Moon cast were up at... early in the first season.

And Ryoga need only a three frames to generate SSH. And he have a head start.

... Well, three frames for one attack is... obscene. Ranma's supposed to be able to cross more than that distance and pop out an extreme amount of pain within the space between a frame.

First of all. IMO you forgot about lift that wings provide. And you said it yourself “jet at take off speed.”.

I'd presume 'take off speed' was hyperbole. There's no logical reason for it to really have been going at take-off speed, since he was trying to use it to crush targets on the ground.

[Climhazard]

The points you are trying to defend have nothing to do with magic/ki. They're because the artist's understanding of reality was flawed. And really, they're rather embarassing to look at.

Oh. Still, this is change nothing. Ranmaversum still work like that.

Since Takahashi has never bothered to offer any kind of explanation as to how it suddenly became physically possible, I'm going to simply state that the line has to be hyperbole - as I just said.

Pale Wolf... Sorry, but i sense a little bits of double standarts here... You have a very high demands on Ranma but in same time far loose one in case of SM. I'm mean... Its never explained how Silver Crystall work, how they able to henshin, how Senshi able to tap into planet energy... So all Senshi's ability also a hyperbole?
Added later:

Because any of the mechanisms by which it could be achieved mean Ryu would have had vastly different and more dangerous abilities, and would have used them.

Ryu, like most of Ranma crew extremally strong. He can easily shatter walls without any visible strain... So, what the problem with ripping out human heart? Human body for most part less durable that walls.

[claymade]

Claymade: I don't know the ep for Jupiter-dodging feat, but for the attacks they happened in the Fiore movie, or for something similar when they fought the DD Girls.

I found the ep--you can look at the picture page here, although it doesn't seem to have any pictures of the actual dodge, unfortunately.
From what I can decipher, comparing that against the summary, even if Jupiter was in fact able to avoid the attack it doesn't seem to have been a consistent thing, as she does seem to get beaten down by it. That (personally speaking) suggests to me more the style bissek mentioned: "realize she's about to shoot and do an evasive manuver", rather than a "fast enough to dodge the actual blast in real-time." Not having the ep myself, however, I obviously can't say for sure.

Petz's power is called 'Dark Thunder'

That's true.

The problem Ryouga did already stand in the ready position for throwing SSH - which more likely corresponds a guy with gun drawn and off the safety lock.
Also, the blast is almost a meter wide when it reaches Ranma - too big to dodge.

Worse, there's no actual "draw"--Ryouga hardly has to remove his hand from a holster in the first place--and the size of the blast means you don't much need to "aim" any more than you would for a normal punch. Thus, assuming the exact same figures will apply is tenuous at best. It's basically saying that Ranma should have been able to cover 21' and then throw a punch before Ryouga could throw a punch. I'm... skeptical, to say the least.

I find it certainly at least indicates that that is the level of taking and dealing of punishment that the Sailor Moon cast were up at... early in the first season.

You can't really extrapolate the durability of a hero from the durability of their foes--especially with regard to different types of damage (impact vs. whatever-the-heck kind of magical damage the Moon Tiara discharges). Similarly, the fact that Lime's arm can absorb this kind of force without even the slightest apparent pain doesn't mean that Ranma's arm would necessarily have remained intact on trying the same stunt.
(For what it's worth, the Ranma FAQ guesstimated the weight of that boulder at around 60 tons. And that was a 60 falling tons that had already had the opportunity to accumulate a good deal of downward momentum.)

... Well, three frames for one attack is... obscene. Ranma's supposed to be able to cross more than that distance and pop out an extreme amount of pain within the space between a frame.

Well, strictly speaking, frame count tells us nothing one way or the other. The "space between a frame" can be a nanosecond or a day. You've got to look at the context for any kind of timelapse determination.
In this case, the sequence of events is obvious--Ranma runs at Ryouga, Ryouga throws the Shi Shi Hokodan at the point where Ranma's a couple inches out of arm's reach, Ranma is blown away. It takes several frames simply because Takahashi wants to show the play-by-play in detail the first time--thus, the action needs to be broken down. Once that's done, she usually only spends one frame on it.

Even a short charge time can render an attack useless for magical mudslinging.

Huh? Why would it be useless to have a lower rate-of-fire in exchange for greater damage? Depending on the nature of your enemy--and the way the tradeoffs run--it just might be necessary. You can shoot your high-rate-of-fire pistol at a tank all day long, but I'm betting you'd rather have an anti-tank missle, even if it took a bit longer to load for each shot.
Rock, paper, scissors.

Basically correct. Though the issue with the heart grab is more that Takahashi's apparently granting Ryu enough physical force to blow straight through bone and then never having him use it.

Considering the Ryu did, in fact, fail in his attempt, but left Ranma extremely injured, one could generously assume that he has enough physical force to almost plow through the bone of someone with high-level Ranmaverse durability--which would still make it a lethal technique against a "normal" one would imagine. That's really all you need to assume to disprove the original contention that sparked this--that Ranmaverse martial arts were somehow incapable of being used in a lethal manner.

Insolence!
After all the hard work I went through to find and organize these materials! And you are too lazy to go and find them in the older threads?!

*waves hands apologetically* Sorry, sorry!

http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/sm005clip_00.avi
http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/smmovierclip_00.avi
http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/smmo ... lip_01.avi
http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/smmo ... lip_02.avi
http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/sm074clip_00.avi

You're right; these are clearly a lot more realistic timings than the stock footage ones. Still, you notice that even a lot of these require some ammount of charging--Jupiter in particular seems to spend almost a full second or two (of screentime, granted, not necessarily realtime) to gathering her energy.
Thus, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that "the Senshi attacks (at least the 1st level ones) take as much time to launch as throwing a punch -- ans as easy." Like I said, the simple fact that Jupiter switches to punches after the Supreme Thunder failed argues pretty convincingly that they're not on parity, no matter the ammount of anime-time-dilation or lack thereof.
http://soul-hunter.com/sailormoon/galleryscreencaps/041/index3.php

The animation/real time inconsistence (60sec. vs less tan 1 sec):
http://host-17-99.imsys.net/_share/sm148clip_00.avi

Yeah. Obviously she can crank that attack out pretty daggone fast.



EDIT: The site transfer ate this in one of my subsequent posts, so allow me to just slip it back in right here. Regarding the question of how much weight is supported by the front chassis of a plane vs. the rear chassis, the actual figure is around only 10% supported by the front.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/design/q0200.shtml

Thus, even with a 180 ton plane, Jadeite would only have been run over by an effective 18 tons. Considering that the Ranma characters are shocked that a three-ton boulder impact hurts Saffron, I'd say that puts him right comfortably in a Ranma-ish DR class--not an order of magnitude beyond. (Personally speaking, I'd stick him somewhere between Ranma and post-BT-Ryouga in terms of ability to soak up damage.)

[Pale Wolf]

Oh, sure, only my post was deleted...

... Everyone got it, right? I really don't feel like retyping the whole mess.

[claymade]

... Everyone got it, right? I really don't feel like retyping the whole mess.

Not sure; there was quite a bit of back-and-forth that got clipped. The last thing of yours I saw was when you reminded us that a youma's DR could potenrially be proportional to their strength if the Senshi's blasts were just that much more powerful.

Then based on my response to that, Seraphim, Zwzn and I got into a discussion about the Senshi's own strength threshold. If you posted anything after that, I missed it.

The last thing I saw in this thread before the downtime was my own post arguing that the instance where Moon is trapped under the youma's shield is a rather unfair instance to use as a strength gauge, since she'd just been hurt by an enemy attack, and seemed to need some time to recover even after the shield was removed. (Not to mention that we don't even know how heavy the shield was in the first place, making it far less reliable a gauge than the gravity incident.)

[Zwzn]

Then based on my response to that, Seraphim, Zwzn and I got into a discussion about the Senshi's own strength threshold. If you posted anything after that, I missed it.

The last thing I saw in this thread before the downtime was my own post arguing that the instance where Moon is trapped under the youma's shield is a rather unfair instance to use as a strength gauge, since she'd just been hurt by an enemy attack, and seemed to need some time to recover even after the shield was removed. (Not to mention that we don't even know how heavy the shield was in the first place, making it far less reliable a gauge than the gravity incident.)

The daemon in question said her/it's self it had little or no combat abilities. It never hurt Moon. It could cause Moon pain by aplying all it's wieght plus the shield, but not actually hurt her. The shield was about as tall and wide as it was, and maybe about a couple inches thick at most. Moon could not push something off her that was about her size. I think the standing in the 16gs was not through brute force.

[Pale Wolf]

The daemon in question said her/it's self it had little or no combat abilities.

Combat abilities don't mean strength. A bodybuilder can be monstrously powerful but absolutely worthless in a fight.

[P.H. Wise]

I suppose it's probably too late to voice in on this, but aren't the Senshi, and any character, really, as powerful as they need to be for the purposes of the story? No more, no less?

Sailor Moon stands up under 16g gravity, for example, well, because it demonstrates something about her character. And I don't mean how powerful she is - I mean the kind of person she is. The writer is more interested in the drama of the moment than the physics of it.

Ranma survives an incredible attack because, well, he's the hero of the story. The writer is more interested in the drama of the moment than in the physics of it.

[claymade]

I suppose it's probably too late to voice in on this, but aren't the Senshi, and any character, really, as powerful as they need to be for the purposes of the story? No more, no less?

Sailor Moon stands up under 16g gravity, for example, well, because it demonstrates something about her character. And I don't mean how powerful she is - I mean the kind of person she is. The writer is more interested in the drama of the moment than the physics of it.

Ranma survives an incredible attack because, well, he's the hero of the story. The writer is more interested in the drama of the moment than in the physics of it.

True enough, but the value of threads such as these is that, when writing a story in a pre-existing mythos, you want to minimize the cognitive dissonance for the reader as best you can. While it's abstractly true that the plot rules all, in practice, if you write a fic where the Senshi are only as strong as normal girls, fans who know better will be thrown off by it. "Hey, but what about that time when..."

The key is discover both the boundaries that canon imposes, as well as creative ways to circumvent those boundaries.

The shield was about as tall and wide as it was, and maybe about a couple inches thick at most.

That's a description of volume, not mass. Without the density of the matterial, it's meaningless. Look at Ryouga's umbrella for an example of why that doesn't work.

Moon could not push something off her that was about her size.

She had just been hit by an energy blast right before that happened! How on earth is that a fair situation to assess her strength!?