Crystal Tokyo

[GenocideHeart]

A lot of the morality of the BMF exile question can boil down to one question: Did Serenity provide the exiles with the supplies and equipment needed to find a new planet and terraform it to be livable? If yes, than she gave them the ability to make their own lives on their own terms, which is what they wanted. If not, then she just sent them off to die somewhere out of sight, as if arranging for somebody to starve to death where you don't have to see it is somehow not an act of murder

I lean towards her simply kicking them out and not considering anything else. It fits Usagi - she always ALWAYS tends to see the short-term consequences, and not the long-term ones, which is another reason why she's a totally inept candidate for ruler - a ruler must be able to think long-term. She can't. Period.
And if she did provide terraforming material, don't you think Nemesis would at least yield somewhat decent crops instead of the half-shriveled up stuff we get to briefly glimpse?
So... my opinion is no, she didn't provide anything. And frankly, I can't think of a whole lot of things that could justify what is essentially a sentence to death by slow starvation and harsh environment.

[bissek]

Terraforming is a centuries long process. It could take generations to get the environment up to the point where you can produce large quantities of Terran foodstuffs. The question is, do they have hydroponics facilities in sealed environments (on their colony ship, if nowhere else) as a backup to the standard fields?
It might be amusing to see a SM fic where they look around CT, declare that heroes are NOT obliged to save people from the direct results of their own stupidity, and go back to the past, totally uninterested in their so-called 'destiny'.
Destiny as a plot device is a fairly weak concept anyway. Real destiny is more a matter of opportunities rather than events. Usagi is destined to be in a situation where she could become Queen Serenity, the act of doing so or not is her own decision. A great destiny simply means that your personal choices will affect large numbers of people, for good or ill, not that you will end up being considered great in any way.

[EdenB]

I lean towards her simply kicking them out and not considering anything else. It fits Usagi - she always ALWAYS tends to see the short-term consequences, and not the long-term ones, which is another reason why she's a totally inept candidate for ruler - a ruler must be able to think long-term. She can't. Period.

On this point it is assumed that Usagi matures somewhat over the years. As well as that she would proberly use at least Ami, Pluto and Luna as advisors if not all the other Senshi and/or elected advisors. Being queen, she'd be the one attacked either way, wasn't there a phrase saying something like "chop off the head and the rest falls"? On top of that Usagi is proberly the main one with the power to stop any takeover plans.

However, there is another way. Despite the fact that the ability to kick ass and the ability to run a country are not necessarily related, history has shown that people like to elect heros to public office.

This is how I think it happened basically, though I think the whole royalty bit, though unproven would proberly add to their popularity, since they're already a hero.
A more recent example though on a smaller scale is that old movie star, who I think wasn't even American originally who got elected governer or something. He was popular so he had peoples support.

'End of the world' style chaos doesn't really happen. Bluntly put, the human race is too goddamn stubborn to be done in by a few loonies. Or even a lot of loonies.
Hell, even a lot of loonies with nukes probably can't pull it off.

I'd imagine with Usagi's personality, if a few loonies who wanted to bring about end of the world chaos wouldn't let Usagi stop them (via purification, if it is a 'brainwashing' or whatever technique) she'd proberly prefer to exile them, than kill them. It is a scenario for what could've happened to the original exiles.

[Pale Wolf]

Well you know what they say about the best intentions.... It also wouldnt be completely out of character. The group as a whole doesnt put a lot of effort into longterm planning. You would think that they would place emphasis on battle tactics and world political history at the least if Usagi is supposed to be the 'Destined' queen of the world.

Oh, I agree, it's not out of character.
And that's why these people ruling the world is an even worse idea.

everything goes spiraling down, for people to lose faith, and decide to do what's best for themselves

Actually, I've always been of the opinion that human apathy would make anarchy a surprisingly peaceful state.

Never said I wouldn't but that's not the point....they merely considered themselves pious and zealous....

The insane always believe that it's they who are sane, and everyone else who is twisted (or servants of the Devil, in this case).
It's one of the key indicators - hundred percent sane, or hundred percent nuts, either way you think you're sane. It's only in the middling stages that you have any doubt.

the exiles merely could have not liked Sailor Moon.....heck, who knows, maybe they even attempted an asassination or something....Yes, leaving Earth would be a stretch, but it could have been that or death, and they did fight back.....

Rebelling against someone with the kind of power generally attributed to gods?
Nobody would do that without a damn good reason.

And I happen to like my Wiseman theory, or at least he had a part in it all

I agree, it's a good one. But I prefer to keep the pot stirring so nobody happens to forget that the evidence doesn't really say.

Question: How did the BMF attack so quickly after the spore grabbed the crystal....it had to have been pretenaturally quick for them to get as far as they did.....

Well, assuming it wasn't just dramatic timing of the events so the lazy animators didn't have to split the scenes where the Crystal was stolen and the attack commenced...
I'll agree. That does indicate either freakish levels of coincidence, or an overarcing plan.

2) They do have the ability to travel time it seems, they may of travelled to when the shield went down.

Actually, it seems like their time travel is highly limited. After all, if the BM were able to freely travel time, they could easily overcome the new shield that the Senshi put up and snatch Usa before she escaped by heading back to their window of opportunity and trying again.

2 seems unlikely with Pluto still being there...unless this disproves the whole she can manipulate time gig....

She can't as is. She just guards the Gate, and lets horrifically-poorly-chosen people through it 'because Serenity said so'.

Remember Wolf, the Xenogears Wiseman was Grahf's GOOD half, and the SM Wiseman is a villain.

A Wolf never forgets I know, that's why I was leaning towards nicknaming Wiseguy after the Grahf side. I actually thought that going straight to calling him 'Grahf' would be way too obvious.

However, there is another way. Despite the fact that the ability to kick ass and the ability to run a country are not necessarily related, history has shown that people like to elect heros to public office. I can name six US presidents who had been war heros in wars that happened shortly before they ran for election (Washington, Harrison (the first one), Jackson, Grant, T. Roosevelt (who was only elected VP, then earned his election for second term), Eisenhower). With the exception of Harrison, who died in office after a month, every one of them served two terms, despite the fact that Grant was a terrible President. Many other presidents served in lesser capacities in war before coming to office, and a lot of governers and senators were also war heros. Being a hero is great for the ballot box, even if it doesn't prove anything about your qualifications.
Think on the entire SM series not as a fight against evil but instead as a giant PR stunt. The Senshi have gone to considerable lengths to make dramatic entrances and heroic rescues, often in front of media, despite the fact that they would be far more effective if they had operated more discretely and killed their enemies from the shadows without grandstanding and providing targets for their enemies. Given that situation, if when all hope seems lost, a forgotten hero returns and offers the world a chance at survival, it's quite likely that Serenity was proclaimed their leader on a sort of primal instinct.

Blah. Unfortunate, but true. Sheep.
That's probably what founded my suspicion that the original rebels were people who kind of sat up and took notice that 'hey, this girl is half-braindead, and that's not an actual qualification to rule'.

Another way would be simple blackmail. Swear fealty and you get to move to a place that isn't openly hostile to life.

True, but she doesn't own Tokyo either.

A lot of the morality of the BMF exile question can boil down to one question: Did Serenity provide the exiles with the supplies and equipment needed to find a new planet and terraform it to be livable? If yes, than she gave them the ability to make their own lives on their own terms, which is what they wanted. If not, then she just sent them off to die somewhere out of sight, as if arranging for somebody to starve to death where you don't have to see it is somehow not an act of murder.

I'll agree with GenocideHeart. As well, while this isn't proof one way or another, the fact that the descendants were so desperate to get off suggests that it wasn't terraformed to be livable. It was likely insane luck (or Wiseguy's manipulations) that got them to a place even as (barely) habitable as Nemesis.
If nothing else, you'd really do better to pick almost any other solid planet than Nemesis if you were going to terraform. If you're terraforming, you're best off picking the place that's already closest to Earth's state. They'd be the Mars Family, not the Black Moon Family.

In terms of the Nemesis population, for short-term survival of a population, you need at least 30 people of child-producing age. For long term, you need at least 300.

On Earth. But living conditions on Nemesis could easily skew that number. Especially if the conditions are so harsh that the 'inevitable death' rate increases and the population keeps getting whittled down.

The question is, do they have hydroponics facilities in sealed environments (on their colony ship, if nowhere else) as a backup to the standard fields?

Most likely not. The fact that Diamond/Sapphire had never seen flowers before indicates this - if they'd had hydroponics, dedicating a tank to some kind of beauty would produce immense boosts to morale.

It might be amusing to see a SM fic where they look around CT, declare that heroes are NOT obliged to save people from the direct results of their own stupidity, and go back to the past, totally uninterested in their so-called 'destiny'.

Ah, my twisted fics... (Got one where they end up actively fighting their future selves)

Destiny as a plot device is a fairly weak concept anyway.

Yep. But then, if we started taking time out to enumerate every weak point and plotting screwup in the anime, we'd be here for far more time than I want to dedicate to something of dubious quality.

On this point it is assumed that Usagi matures somewhat over the years.

And yet she acts the exact same from what little evidence we've seen...

[Daniel Jess Gibson]

Maybe I've had an extra helping of evil today but Pale Wolf's comment:

And regardless of what the original rebels did, the fact that the punishment extended to their children, and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren (etc) inherently makes the punishment unjustified.

Gave me the idea that maybe the BMF ancestors were exiled because their descendants would kidnap the Spore and attack CT at its weakest point in time.
After all, everybody keeps talking about Destiny, but it's a two-edged sword. If you believe that the future is fixed, and that bad people will do something in the future, and nothing will change that. You might see clear to exiling their ancestors so when they attack, they will be doing so blind. Predestination trumps freewill in this instance because the exile causes the exact situation that will trigger the crime.
Since Usagi/Serenity and Mamoru are such slaves to destiny, they'll fall into this trap.

And heck, if my hated enemy's impenetrable defences suddenly went down, I wouldn't wonder until after I'd exploited the advantage.

I have to agree, they've already sent you to the worse place in the star system, what have you got to lose.
Whatever happened to the other allied Kingdoms: Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc. is that ever mentioned? I know they fell, but did they ever rise again?

[Pale Wolf]

Gave me the idea that maybe the BMF ancestors were exiled because their descendants would kidnap the Spore and attack CT at its weakest point in time.
After all, everybody keeps talking about Destiny, but it's a two-edged sword. If you believe that the future is fixed, and that bad people will do something in the future, and nothing will change that. You might see clear to exiling their ancestors so when they attack, they will be doing so blind. Predestination trumps freewill in this instance because the exile causes the exact situation that will trigger the crime.
Since Usagi/Serenity and Mamoru are such slaves to destiny, they'll fall into this trap.

That makes way too much sense for me to sleep well at night.

Whatever happened to the other allied Kingdoms: Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc. is that ever mentioned? I know they fell, but did they ever rise again?

Not yet, at least - unless their rulers are always at court in CT and never actually... ruling. Doesn't give off the impression, at least.

[bissek]

True, prophecies generally come in two categories: Self-fulfulling, and the ones that make no sense until the event predicted happens, give or take a week (Causing just-in-time salvation or 'why didn't we figure this out sooner' situations).
Ruling? Do any of the Senshi know HOW to rule beyond giving commands and hoping a subordinate can convert their instructions into workable orders? I can see Ami doing a good job as a Minister of Science, but as pointed out before, most of the Senshi are totally unqualified for government work, especially at the highest levels.

[Pale Wolf]

Ruling? Do any of the Senshi know HOW to rule beyond giving commands and hoping a subordinate can convert their instructions into workable orders? I can see Ami doing a good job as a Minister of Science, but as pointed out before, most of the Senshi are totally unqualified for government work, especially at the highest levels.

Agreed, but since they're supposed to anyway in this 'utopia', it'd be nice if they took a minute out and did it. For variety.

[Daniel Jess Gibson]

Ruling? Do any of the Senshi know HOW to rule beyond giving commands and hoping a subordinate can convert their instructions into workable orders?

You're confusing reigning (God gave you the job, a la Lion King), versus ruling (you actually have been trained and earned it, even if it wasn't clear that's what was happening a la Kimba the White Lion).
The Senshi reign, they don't rule.
Historically this is a disaster, Eva and Juan Peron are just a recent example, when they ruled things went well, when they reigned and the functionaries ruled, things fell apart.

[Knight of L-sama]

Pale Wolf, not to be rude but it seems to me that the logic for your arguements is the wrong way around. You've decided that Crystal Tokyo is a bad place and therefore trying to make the facts fit that, or at least that's how it's coming across to me.
Known Facts:
Usagi/Serenity becomes ruler of Crystal Tokyo after the Great Freeze.
Ancestors of the Black Moon Family leave Earth at approximately the same period. (It is completely unknown whether this exile was self-imposed or forced by the Powers That Be in the new Crystal Tokyo)
Black Moon Family encounter settle on Nemesis and encounter Wiseman sometime later, blame Earth's inhabitants for their condition and head back set on vengance. Events shown in Sailor Moon R ensue.
Your main point of contention seems to be that a large number of people chose not to live under Neo-Queen Serenity's rule and were exiled as a result.
My main beef with this arguement you assume that the precurssors to the Black Moon Family were reasonable in their opposition. However sane human beings are quite capable of taking actions for what turn out to be irrational decisions. They may not be operating with all the information or with faulty information, they may only be thinking short term rather than long term (or vice-cersa which under some circumstances can be just as disastrous) and don't realise they've made a bad choice until its too late.
Equally plausible is that some charismatic figure arose and opposed Serenity's rise to the throne because he wanted himself but the majority supported Serenity and this hypothetical other leader and his followers chose to leave when it became obvious when they couldn't win. Naploeon Mk III anyone?
And at this point I would like to point out that the old saw about history being written by the victors isn't always accurate. It's more history is written but the survivors and the exiles would have written (metaphorically if not literally). Just because those who became to the Black Moon Family blame Serenity and the rest of humanity for their exile doesn't mean they didn't bring it on their own heads, especially if it was self-imposed. Easier to blame the victors than to admit it was your own (or your ancestors) shortcomings that resulted in you being stuck out in the back end of nowhere on Nemesis, especially once Wiseman got started in on them.
While these have no more canon evidence backing them up Occam's Razor would seem to favour them over hypotheses positing sinister or totalarian motives to a character who has proven multiple times in canon that she would rather die than see other's suffer (and Neo-Queen Serenity isn't that far removed from Usagi either going by the note she sent back with Chibi-Usa in Sailor Moon S).

[Pale Wolf]

Ancestors of the Black Moon Family leave Earth at approximately the same period. (It is completely unknown whether this exile was self-imposed or forced by the Powers That Be in the new Crystal Tokyo)

Nemesis was a hellhole. And it was directly stated that they left after violent resistance. Generally, even if that's not called exile, it may as well be.

My main beef with this arguement you assume that the precurssors to the Black Moon Family were reasonable in their opposition.

I find it makes things more fun than schoolgirl notions of pure good/evil.

However sane human beings are quite capable of taking actions for what turn out to be irrational decisions. They may not be operating with all the information or with faulty information, they may only be thinking short term rather than long term (or vice-cersa which under some circumstances can be just as disastrous) and don't realise they've made a bad choice until its too late.

Ah, now this is possible. Now, again I'll make this challenge.
The original rebels were fighting against the 'Purification' of Earth. This is canon fact.
I challenge you to find a definition of 'Purification' that does not match the generally-accepted 'brainwashing' image, that sane people will fight against (in other words, no baby-sacrificing devil worshippers or megalomaniacs). Something that will trigger this kind of irrational decision.

Equally plausible is that some charismatic figure arose and opposed Serenity's rise to the throne because he wanted himself but the majority supported Serenity and this hypothetical other leader and his followers chose to leave when it became obvious when they couldn't win. Naploeon Mk III anyone?

Believable. But then why would Serenity have any more right to rule the world than our hypothetical Napolean Third Edition?
And as for leaving: What, Serenity and her non-infinite followers couldn't spare a couple square kilometers of the Earth's surface for those who didn't want to follow her? And for that matter, why the hell would they leave what little of Earth they'd managed to keep from her, just so they could go out into space on the off-chance of finding a place to live before their supplies ran out?

And at this point I would like to point out that the old saw about history being written by the victors isn't always accurate. It's more history is written but the survivors and the exiles would have written (metaphorically if not literally).

Nah, actually the majority of the history was written by Endymion as far as we've seen.
About all we have from the Black Moon's perspective of history is flashback scenes, which we can assume to be one hundred percent accurate. Primarily they indicate the quality of life on the planet and the reasoning behind the Black Moon attack.
In other words, the majority of the history we're working with here was written by the very people we're disagreeing with.

Just because those who became to the Black Moon Family blame Serenity and the rest of humanity for their exile doesn't mean they didn't bring it on their own heads, especially if it was self-imposed. Easier to blame the victors than to admit it was your own (or your ancestors) shortcomings that resulted in you being stuck out in the back end of nowhere on Nemesis, especially once Wiseman got started in on them.

Buddy, 'your ancestors' should have no say in you getting stuck on a piss-poor planet like Nemesis. Punished for the sins of the fathers? Collective punishment? That, my friend, is a war crime.

While these have no more canon evidence backing them up Occam's Razor would seem to favour them over hypotheses positing sinister or totalarian motives to a character who has proven multiple times in canon that she would rather die than see other's suffer (and Neo-Queen Serenity isn't that far removed from Usagi either going by the note she sent back with Chibi-Usa in Sailor Moon S).

And that's the main problem with her as a ruler.
She's not smart enough for the job. She doesn't think. That means that she makes constant and massive errors in judgement - she put six billion people at risk because she didn't want to stain her hands on several occasions.
'Sinister' and 'totalitarian'? No. The problem is her compassion, because her hatred of suffering means she'll refuse to let other people follow their own path if she thinks it's wrong. But what's wrong for her isn't wrong for everyone else. And what's right for her is horribly wrong for other people. That's a big part of what it is to be human.

[Knight of L-sama]

Nemesis was a hellhole. And it was directly stated that they left after violent resistance. Generally, even if that's not called exile, it may as well be.

Still doesn't mean that it couldn't be self-imposed. Wouldn't be the first group to haul ass when they saw they couldn't win.

I find it makes things more fun than schoolgirl notions of pure good/evil.

Fun can be had without twisting canon into a pretzel

Ah, now this is possible. Now, again I'll make this challenge.
The original rebels were fighting against the 'Purification' of Earth. This is canon fact.
I challenge you to find a definition of 'Purification' that does not match the generally-accepted 'brainwashing' image, that sane people will fight against (in other words, no baby-sacrificing devil worshippers or megalomaniacs). Something that will trigger this kind of irrational decision.

Quite simple. Purification could refer to the removal of the cause of the Great Freeze, whether it be magical or technological in origin, lest it cuase a repeat or worse. However those in possesion of it don't want to give it up for several possible reasons (they don't realise that it was what caused the Great Freeze in the first place or that something else caused it, they believe that its removal will cause adverse effects, they simply don't want to give up the benefits it brings). I would also point out that the Dark Moon Sisters didn't show any adverse effects from their purifications save the loss of their powers. They still got angry, fought and generally behaved like your average person on the street.

Believable. But then why would Serenity have any more right to rule the world than our hypothetical Napolean Third Edition?

The democracy of sheer numbers. More people backed Serenity than the other guy and she's able to accomplish more with her larger support base.

And as for leaving: What, Serenity and her non-infinite followers couldn't spare a couple square kilometers of the Earth's surface for those who didn't want to follow her? And for that matter, why the hell would they leave what little of Earth they'd managed to keep from her, just so they could go out into space on the off-chance of finding a place to live before their supplies ran out?

That's assuming it wasn't a self-imposed exile. Colonists have taken such risks in the past purely of their own volition and people can get rather desperate when they see their losing, even if surrendering allows more long term options.

About all we have from the Black Moon's perspective of history is flashback scenes, which we can assume to be one hundred percent accurate. Primarily they indicate the quality of life on the planet and the reasoning behind the Black Moon attack.

But you're accepting their reasoning for their attack as blindly as you say we shouldn't accept that from Crystal Tokyo. The flashbacks are relatively recent and the Black Moon Family we see aren't the first generation to live on Nemesis. They have what their ancestors said about what happened to go upon and Wiseman and the Doom Phantom's influence makes that extremely suspect even before you add in the natural human tendency to blame the other guy.

Buddy, 'your ancestors' should have no say in you getting stuck on a piss-poor planet like Nemesis. Punished for the sins of the fathers? Collective punishment? That, my friend, is a war crime.

Whose to say that their descendants couldn't come back it they had returned peacefully instead of coming in all guns blazing. As for Nemesis's state it's inhabitants bear at least some of the blame for that. It may not have started as a decent place but considering the effort it would have taken to move it so close to Earth to exact the revenge they probably could have made it a much better place to live if they had re-directed those efforts into terraforming and improving conditions. As others pointed out much of Nemsis's inhabitabilty could have been caused by the presence of Wiseman and the Dark Crystal.

While these have no more canon evidence backing them up Occam's Razor would seem to favour them over hypotheses positing sinister or totalarian motives to a character who has proven multiple times in canon that she would rather die than see other's suffer (and Neo-Queen Serenity isn't that far removed from Usagi either going by the note she sent back with Chibi-Usa in Sailor Moon S).

And that's the main problem with her as a ruler.
She's not smart enough for the job. She doesn't think. That means that she makes constant and massive errors in judgement - she put six billion people at risk because she didn't want to stain her hands on several occasions.

And yet her decisions turned out to be right in the end. And might I point out that she had no compuctions about earsing Mettalia, the Doom Phantom and possibly Pharoah 90 (since we have no idea if it was her or Saturn that landed the final blow). It's only when she beleives that someone can be saved that she holds off.
And as for her other qualifications she has proven willing to ask for advice when she's in over her head. And while we know Crystal Tokyo is a monarchy we have no idea what form of monarcy that takes. There could be a fairly conventional form of government below her with Neo Queen Serenity only intervening when nessecary and we never saw them because they had relocated out of Crystal Tokyo proper when the fighting began.

'Sinister' and 'totalitarian'? No. The problem is her compassion, because her hatred of suffering means she'll refuse to let other people follow their own path if she thinks it's wrong. But what's wrong for her isn't wrong for everyone else. And what's right for her is horribly wrong for other people. That's a big part of what it is to be human.

From what we know if Neo-Queen Serenity is willing to take a hands off approach when nessecary and let people learn from their own mistakes (doesn't mean she likes to but she has been shown to recognise the neccesity) at least with Chibi-Usa and there's no reason to assume the same doesn't apply with the rest of Crystal Tokyo as a whole, letting everyone go on their own way unless there's a really major stuff-up.

[Zwzn]

Pharoah 90 (since we have no idea if it was her or Saturn that landed the final blow).

I hope you are not talking about the anime.
Usagi did not have her Heart crystal in her until after she and a baby Hotaru where back on Earth. Someone who does not have a Heart crystal in them is not able to do more then what their heart desires, and that is only if they can move. Moon's desire was to bring Saturn back. Moon nearly killed the inner senshi and her self to save someone who likely did not need saving. It is safe to assume that Moon did not attack P90.
It is hinted at here and there in the anime that Crystal Tokyo may be theocracy with Usagi as the goddess.

[Moshulel]

The way i remember it, the rebels were exiled on Nemesis for refusing purification and fighting against it. And if you were to take a look at the rebels you would notice that they aren't tipical villains.
Also remember that when they realize Wiseman has tricked them, they fight against him. It stands as proof that Wiseman's ideals are not the same as the ones of the Black Moon family.
And let's take a look at Cristal Tokio and the purification...
No matter how you take it the purification is going to take something from what defines humans as humans. An alteration which if you refuse... you get exiled to the coldest planet in the Solar System, not Mars or one of Jupiter's moons which could be theoreticly terraformed but to the coldest planet where you will die, slowly but certainly.
Cristal Tokio strikes me as the dream of all dictators in hystory, no oppinion to contradict you because you rooted them from the start and you mind wiped the rest. It seems to me like a very eerly resemblance with how Stalin and Hitler dealt with their opponents.
What right do the reincarnation of some Moon Princess have to Earth?
And as a question for the one who suggested that the ancestors of the BMF were exiled because of the actions of their descendents: Do you punish innocents?

[Metroidvania]

And yet her decisions turned out to be right in the end. And might I point out that she had no compuctions about earsing Mettalia, the Doom Phantom and possibly Pharoah 90 (since we have no idea if it was her or Saturn that landed the final blow). It's only when she beleives that someone can be saved that she holds off.
And as for her other qualifications she has proven willing to ask for advice when she's in over her head. And while we know Crystal Tokyo is a monarchy we have no idea what form of monarcy that takes. There could be a fairly conventional form of government below her with Neo Queen Serenity only intervening when nessecary and we never saw them because they had relocated out of Crystal Tokyo proper when the fighting began.

Um, Pharoah 90 was destroyed/weakened and permanently forbidden from returning Earth by Saturn, (depending on whether you base it on the anime or the manga) and in doing so, she died using Death Reborn Revolution. Sailor Moon somehow accompanied her, and saved Baby Hotaru and brought her back to Earth, and then Setsuna, Michiru, and Haruka adopted her....