How powerful are the Senshi?

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

A properly-done surprise attack takes powers into account. In the olden days, Sivana would always grab Billy Batson by the throat or mouth before he could say "Shazam!" If you want to get rid of Sailor Moon you make a sniper shot from half a mile away. She'll be dead before she realizes it's time to henshin.

Knowledge is power enough to deal with most other power advantages. The first season of Sailor Moon would have ended very differently if Beryl hadn't been in such a hurry to punish Jadeite that she crystallized him before he could tell her Sailor Moon was Usagi. The Senshi fight as a team (they're usually in deep trouble when they have to go one-on-one). Anybody who targets them when they're alone and in their civilian guise is going to take them out; only luck, stupidity and/or deus ex machina will save them.

This boils down to three classifications:

1) The people who know the most about themselves and their foes are probably going to win.

2) Ignoring classification (1), the person who shoots first and most accurately is starting out with a great advantage.

3) And ignoring (1) and (2), the most powerful (and lucky) individuals and teams are going to win. This must, of course, take account of the rock - paper - scissors nature of superpowers.

Some people here are trying to have a discussion based on the third factor only. That's okay, but then you're really dealing with a formal duel rather than a battle. The closest we come to that in Sailor Moon is the end of the third season, where Uranus and Neptune challenge Moon. The rest of the time, it's battles.

[Pale Wolf]

Even in the end of the third season, it misses out on other factors.

A formal duel between Uranus/Neptune and Moon, who have pretty much the same 'parameters' to their abilities, is a different case from a formal duel between Ranma and Moon.

In Uranus/Neptune's case versus Moon, they have largely similar abilities. So it comes down to power and skill and tactics on who wins.

In Ranma vs Moon? Their ability profiles are radically different.

If they start at a range where Moon can't get off the whole song-and-dance before Ranma gets to her, she's fucked three ways from Sunday.

And if they start with enough range, Ranma'll get oneshotted and pwnt without even putting up a bit of fight. Moon's a frigging monster - enough power to kill damn near anything, wide-area attacks that are an unsanctified bitch to dodge, and a very decent argument for having a 'bind' incorporated into her magic in the first place which would mean she just needs to start the song-and-dance.

So, what's the 'general case' for that? A situation where barring exceptional performance on either end (aka, dramatic license and main character edge), either one or the other is absolutely screwed with a near-zero chance, and no wiggle room between the cases?

There isn't a 'general case', or any proper base of comparison until you use people who have basically similar power profiles.

[Cheb]

Hmmm... AFAIR, Moon flattened Uranus & Neptune in hand-to-hand. Plus, her main feat is the Uncanny Dodge Mk VIII. Uranus rained kicks and punches on her but they never connected. Plus, that trick with Ginsuisho, blinding Uranus and shocking Neptune who had her pinned.

So, her fight with Ranma in close quarters wouldn't be so one-sided. It would be interesting sight to behold, I believe.

[Comartemis]

Don't forget, Moon's magic seems to respond to the needs of the moment. Am I the only one who remembers the first episode when her hair pieces amplified her crying into a sonic attack, or later in season one when she had to fight in an ice skating ring and her boots grew skates?

Moon could be hiding a whole bag of tricks none of us have ever seen before. I think if she was forced to fight exclusively in hand-to-hand her uniform's enchantments would significantly boost her strength and speed, though her skill would still leave something to be desired.

This could also explain how she was able to stand up in 16x gravity vs Rubeus in season two, another accomplishment that never happened again (to my knowledge).

[Pale Wolf]

Hmmm... AFAIR, Moon flattened Uranus & Neptune in hand-to-hand.

Not really, HtH she was getting her ass beat down. Just that she pwnt them with a burst of raw power from her rock.

And geez, I'm already granting her auto-win at any range of about ten meters or more, do you have to grab the last little speck at melee?

[Zwzn]

Hmmm... AFAIR, Moon flattened Uranus & Neptune in hand-to-hand.

Not really, HtH she was getting her ass beat down. Just that she pwnt them with a burst of raw power from her rock.

And geez, I'm already granting her auto-win at any range of about ten meters or more, do you have to grab the last little speck at melee?

Uranus and Neptune would not try to hurt their queen. About mid season 3 they where calling Chibi-Usa the princess because of things Pluto told them about Crystal Tokyo. Uranus and Neptune knew Moon could take a combined world shaking and deep submerge. It seems Senshi attacks do little damage to things that are not the enemy of the season.

I would have to rewatch the Ep., but I don't recall U&N being hurt by the blast of energy, and I know Moon was hit with a similar blast ment to KILL Misstress Nine and only went flying a few feet, and was unhurt otherwise. Senshi attacks aren't very powerful IMO. The combined power of Uranus ,Neptune and Pluto didn't even damage a hand rail in the planetarium.

I don't have the slightest idea U&N where really challenging Moon at the end of season 3, but what they do rarely makes sense to me.

And if they start with enough range, Ranma'll get oneshotted and pwnt without even putting up a bit of fight. Moon's a frigging monster - enough power to kill damn near anything, wide-area attacks that are an unsanctified bitch to dodge, and a very decent argument for having a 'bind' incorporated into her magic in the first place which would mean she just needs to start the song-and-dance.

Moon's attacks are often stupidly easy to counter in the anime. Moon's season 1 attacks as I recall them likely would be either dodged or make him stronger in some way.

The season 2 attacks seem to be a mono directional beam he could dodge as I recall

Season 3 attacks have insanely long charge times, and Moon Siral Hearts Attack was countered with a flame thrower(or was that a votex cannon) and a second time it ws countered with paint balls, and aganst the season 4 badies it was unafective as I recall.

Season 4 attacks she needs Chibi-Usa, and I don't recall it ever damaging anything but the monster of the week. It would be just Ranma's luck to have a golden dream mirror.

[Zwzn]

Don't forget, Moon's magic seems to respond to the needs of the moment. Am I the only one who remembers the first episode when her hair pieces amplified her crying into a sonic attack, or later in season one when she had to fight in an ice skating ring and her boots grew skates?

Moon could be hiding a whole bag of tricks none of us have ever seen before. I think if she was forced to fight exclusively in hand-to-hand her uniform's enchantments would significantly boost her strength and speed, though her skill would still leave something to be desired.

This could also explain how she was able to stand up in 16x gravity vs Rubeus in season two, another accomplishment that never happened again (to my knowledge).

One of senshi's weaknesses is they seem to need to think to use to use most of their powers, and deffently need to focus to use the silver crystal.

I personally feel the senshi have some sort of gravity control power.

[claymade]

There is no 'general case'.

Situations will always play to one side's advantage or the other. Every battlefield is different.

True enough. Allow me to phrase my point a bit more specifically, then. Instead of the prejorative term "unfair fight" let me simply suggest that, of the fights we use as reference matterial for considering these kinds of questions, in some of them the "situations" in question are far enough outside the normal expected parameters that--while the situations may be "valid"--they are, ultimately, largely uninteresting as evidence that bears in any way on the more common situations.

If Ranma were, say, so sick he could barely stand, I imagine any of the NWC could beat him. But given what a rare occurence that would be, I don't think such an instance would merit much looking at in a discussion like that of this thread.

Also, one other thing to note--from a fic-writer's perspective--is that a lot of the things that might be considered "unfair" advantages are by their nature malleable to a nearly infinite degree. If Ranma loses because he's poisoned, you could certainly say that says something about his vulnerability in the "situation" where he's been poisoned. But if you play that card, all bets are off anyway--depending on the strength of the poision you can pretty much re-factor Ranma at any level you desire.

Which, as you might imagine, renders discussion a bit moot. I can well understand the inclination to restrict it to the supposedly "fair" cases--the cases where they're using their "normal abilities." Which would, indeed, include Ranma vs. Moon at two paces, Ranma vs. Moon at ten paces, variations on how much they know, at that point of the others' abilities, etc, etc, etc.

If you wanna define it as 'high HP', sure.

Actually, for my money I go more with high DR than high HP, though they would probably have both. Magical effective-body-armor doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me--heck, we know they've got magical invisible thermal underwear.

Some people here are trying to have a discussion based on the third factor only. That's okay, but then you're really dealing with a formal duel rather than a battle.

Part of the problem is, as Pale Wolf points out, that there are a massive number of potential points of variance to take into account. They can't be taken into account all at once--the best one can hope to accomplish is to sweep across them a couple at a time--the most overarching ones first, usually. And stuff like how much the characters know about each other's abilities will explode the permutation tree to an incredible extent.

(For instance, no one's even brought up the cat-phobia/Neko-ken dynamic yet, which is a whole 'nother ball of yarn. If the Senshi figure out Ranma's fear, they've got two very handy ways to throw him completely off his game. But at the same time, if they don't know the full story--and rely too heavily on that tactic--they risk the obvious double-edged sword.)

If they start at a range where Moon can't get off the whole song-and-dance before Ranma gets to her, she's fucked three ways from Sunday.

And if they start with enough range, Ranma'll get oneshotted and pwnt without even putting up a bit of fight.

I think it depends, more than anything else, on what form she's in. Fighting her in her Moon Princess form, I would say Ranma is basically SOL from practically any range. All she has to do is last long enough to erect her force-field, and he's more or less hosed. He doesn't have anything that I could even begin to imagine cracking that, and in that form she can very definitely do the omni-directional hit-everything attacks. His only prayer at that point would probably be the Saotome Secret Technique, if he realizes in time how in-over-his-head he is.

By contrast, her earlier forms don't give her much of a chance against him at all--Tiara-Moon I honestly can't imagine pulling off a victory without practically binding Ranma hand and foot (or unless Ranma gets really overconfident, which is always an option).

Her odds, obviously, get better the bigger and more devastating her attacks get. Given the ambiguity as to the effect of her various attacks on non-evil beings, and the translational issues of just how much damage they'd do to a NWC member, I don't have a firm opinion one way or the other--except a leaning toward Ranma at least up until she gets her Moon Spiral Heart Attack.

Moon could be hiding a whole bag of tricks none of us have ever seen before. I think if she was forced to fight exclusively in hand-to-hand her uniform's enchantments would significantly boost her strength and speed, though her skill would still leave something to be desired.

Considering that your average, garden-variety monster of the week can routinely do just that, backing her into a corner via a vigorous assault (until she's bailed out by an ally getting it off her back for long enough to do one of her overkills) I'd say the point is pretty darn secure. If she didn't spontaneously manifest those powers then, one can hardly assert that she would suddenly do so in the future.

Senshi attacks aren't very powerful IMO.

This from someone who asserts that Venus took out an entire warehouse with a single shot?

[Pale Wolf]

True enough. Allow me to phrase my point a bit more specifically, then. Instead of the prejorative term "unfair fight" let me simply suggest that, of the fights we use as reference matterial for considering these kinds of questions, in some of them the "situations" in question are far enough outside the normal expected parameters that--while the situations may be "valid"--they are, ultimately, largely uninteresting as evidence that bears in any way on the more common situations.

I'll agree to that, though it doesn't quite apply to the point I'm trying to make. (See below)

Which, as you might imagine, renders discussion a bit moot. I can well understand the inclination to restrict it to the supposedly "fair" cases--the cases where they're using their "normal abilities." Which would, indeed, include Ranma vs. Moon at two paces, Ranma vs. Moon at ten paces, variations on how much they know, at that point of the others' abilities, etc, etc, etc.

Ah, this is partially true... Problem is...

Ranma vs Moon at ten paces: MSHA goes off. Ranma pwnt.

Ranma vs Moon at 9.9 paces: Ranma gets his punch in before MSHA goes off, and keeps unloading too much pain for her to actually fire it again. Usagi pwnt.

That is the kind of split-hair quantum leap we're talking about when you try to fight people with different parameters. It's practically auto-win and auto-lose.

Any different parameter applies to this - a genius preplanner knowing the details about their enemy is a huge advantage. Yet, if he doesn't know the details, that's denying him the chance to put his main ability into use. A stealth specialist versus a combat tank - either a surprise shot kills the tank before the fight can start, or the stealth guy is dragged into a fight totally outside his region of specialty. No middle ground when you're talking about different parameters.

I think it depends, more than anything else, on what form she's in. Fighting her in her Moon Princess form, I would say Ranma is basically SOL from practically any range. All she has to do is last long enough to erect her force-field, and he's more or less hosed.

... Nobody seems to be getting the point I'm trying to make here.

Forget the various other powers and forms for a second. In general, Moon throws off obscenely wide-area long-charge magical blasts. In general, Ranma fights in melee with an extremely minor mark in range and some oddball tricks.

These are their basic parameters as combatants. There's no match of 'power' or 'skill' involved. If the situation supports one side or the other, it supports that side totally - nearly a 100% chance of victory. You can't construct a general case when a simple question of 'Do they start at ten meters or fifteen?' is the sole determinant of victory.

You can't compare martial-arts types like Ranma to heavy sorcery like the Senshi. Who wins is dependent entirely on the situation and the tactics involved - power and skill don't even matter. Because there's no question mark. If you put the fighters in one situation - an entirely reasonable one, not even bothering with 'I have amnesia so bad I forgot how to walk' - then the potential of one's victory is nearly overwhelming. Shift the variables slightly towards the other end, and the overwhelming advantage now lies on the other side. There's no middle ground in fights like that.

The only semi-valid comparisons are people who fight off a similar parameter. People who would do 'their best' in the same situations. You'd have to compare Ranma to a heavy melee type - there is where skill and power actually begins to matter more than the situation.

Her odds, obviously, get better the bigger and more devastating her attacks get. Given the ambiguity as to the effect of her various attacks on non-evil beings, and the translational issues of just how much damage they'd do to a NWC member, I don't have a firm opinion one way or the other--except a leaning toward Ranma at least up until she gets her Moon Spiral Heart Attack.

I generally posit her destruction potential as 'absolute'. Nothing survives a shot from her - hell, she can slaughter hundreds of monsters in one shot, as of R.

(Moon Princess Halation deserves merit too for being a pretty-damn-wide beam of power that's very nasty to dodge and can be swept around even if you do. I'd suggest that she could beat him with that - however, the image I was using was of Moon Spiral Heart Attack. And... are you positing Ranma at full post-Saffron and Usagi in first season? )

[claymade]

... Nobody seems to be getting the point I'm trying to make here.

Forget the various other powers and forms for a second. In general, Moon throws off obscenely wide-area long-charge magical blasts. In general, Ranma fights in melee with an extremely minor mark in range and some oddball tricks.

These are their basic parameters as combatants. There's no match of 'power' or 'skill' involved. If the situation supports one side or the other, it supports that side totally - nearly a 100% chance of victory.

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's overstating things a bit. For one thing, I don't see Moon's destructive power as altogether absolute--to the extent it even is "destructive." (see below)

I generally posit her destruction potential as 'absolute'. Nothing survives a shot from her...

Except that's clearly not the case--else why would she ever need progressively more powerful attacks?

And there's one very obvious example of something that always survives a shot from her--any human that happens to be inside the given monster-of-the-week (something that is pretty consistently portrayed as being unique to her attacks). People have positied that some of her "attacks" are closer to healing spells, and that's not an unreasonable conjecture. If you take that as the case, many of the techniques various levels of efficacy against a non-evil human are more or less up for grabs.

I mean, what, exactly, is the MSHA doing? It's not blasting its targets through walls, IIRC, nor cutting, burning, or electrocuting them so far as we can see. It just... turns them back to whatever they were before. So... what effect would that have on Ranma? That's not really clear--you could probably say anything you wanted.

(...cure his curse? *imagines the scene of Ranma abruptly halting a raging battle to tearfully hug each of the confused Senshi*)

This would not be so for her earlier techniques, though, where she did have a distinct dileneation between the "kill the monster" moves and the "heal the monster" moves.

(Moon Princess Halation deserves merit too for being a pretty-damn-wide beam of power that's very nasty to dodge and can be swept around even if you do. I'd suggest that she could beat him with that - however, the image I was using was of Moon Spiral Heart Attack. And... are you positing Ranma at full post-Saffron and Usagi in first season? )

*shrugs* Ranma's dodged stream-type attacks pretty early on in the manga, and wielded by far more skilled fighters to boot. I didn't think it much of a stretch for him to avoid the MPH for the amount of time needed to reach close quarters--particularly not after his first Cologne powerup, when he's dancing around Ryouga like he's not even there.

'Sides, even Rubeus' (stronger) energy stream attack is clearly survivable, since Moon does just that. How that would translate to Ranma-DR terms is obviously not straightforward, but it is very clear that neither attack is "absolute."

...hell, she can slaughter hundreds of monsters in one shot, as of R.

Out of curiosity, when was this? I can't recall it offhand.

[Seraphim]

Out of curiosity, when was this? I can't recall it offhand.

The Fiore/Kisenian movie. I think.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

When we're talking Sailor Moon vs Ranma, we're talking apples and oranges. As numerous folk have pointed out, too much depends on whether the fight starts at ten feet or fifteen.

Ranma/Dragonball is easy. Same sort of powers, the Dragonball folk win. I'd imagine Sailor Moon / Magic Knights Rayearth would be much the same, though I don't know enough Rayearth to be sure.

Ah, but a teamup! Youma appears. The Wrecking Crew immediately piles on and keeps it distracted and harassed while the Moon Crew charges up. Zap! Next youma, please!

[Pale Wolf]

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's overstating things a bit. For one thing, I don't see Moon's destructive power as altogether absolute--to the extent it even is "destructive." (see below)

Fine. Saturn.

The point isn't an outright match, it is the radical disconnect between situations that swings the battle one way or another.

You're not gonna say Saturn 'doesn't hurt her opponents', right?

(Could argue, don't feel like it. Moon blew the frigging hell out of her own Senshi in the manga - that was not 'transformation')

Really, this argument you're making extends my point. With Usagi, it either is, and she blows him away, or it isn't, and she can't scratch him. No middle ground or 'general case'.

*shrugs* Ranma's dodged stream-type attacks pretty early on in the manga, and wielded by far more skilled fighters to boot.

Herb's snakey-cannon thing? I wouldn't say 'dodged', he was getting pretty beat up in that fight

And it doesn't matter if he does dodge. It's canon that Usagi can sweep that thing around like a frigging huge sword. She levelled an army with it.

'Sides, even Rubeus' (stronger) energy stream attack is clearly survivable, since Moon does just that.

Now, if I recall that scene right, Usagi's was the one that won when they went to a smackfest. And that while she was under extreme stress from the gravity.

Out of curiosity, when was this? I can't recall it offhand.

Seraphim's got it.

She also did it in S.


And, Ellen's got it!

(Hugs in joy)

There are other people than the absolutely ludicrous DBZ crew Ranma could be compared to, but that's the basic idea.

[Zwzn]

(Could argue, don't feel like it. Moon blew the frigging hell out of her own Senshi in the manga - that was not 'transformation')

I always thought those where copies, but even if they where not they still would have been likely tanted by Kaos.


.

*shrugs* Ranma's dodged stream-type attacks pretty early on in the manga, and wielded by far more skilled fighters to boot.

(Herb's snakey-cannon thing? I wouldn't say 'dodged', he was getting pretty beat up in that fight

And it doesn't matter if he does dodge. It's canon that Usagi can sweep that thing around like a frigging huge sword. She levelled an army with it.

In the R movie she was not able to keep that up for long before getting tried, and the same goes for the end of season 3. Both times I don't recal the targets trying to get out of the way.

'Sides, even Rubeus' (stronger) energy stream attack is clearly survivable, since Moon does just that.

Now, if I recall that scene right, Usagi's was the one that won when they went to a smackfest. And that while she was under extreme stress from the gravity.

Chibi-Usa was messing with the ships power source.

This from someone who asserts that Venus took out an entire warehouse with a single shot?

I don't recall seeing what went on inside the building after the door closed.

I think it depends, more than anything else, on what form she's in.

In the anime do we actually see anything that proves beyond a reasonable dought that new forms mean more power?

Considering that your average, garden-variety monster of the week can routinely do just that, backing her into a corner via a vigorous assault (until she's bailed out by an ally getting it off her back for long enough to do one of her overkills) I'd say the point is pretty darn secure. If she didn't spontaneously manifest those powers then, one can hardly assert that she would suddenly do so in the future.

Moon has a meat shield for a reason.

[Zwzn]

(Could argue, don't feel like it. Moon blew the frigging hell out of her own Senshi in the manga - that was not 'transformation')

I always thought those where copies, but even if they where not they still would have been likely tanted by Kaos.


.

*shrugs* Ranma's dodged stream-type attacks pretty early on in the manga, and wielded by far more skilled fighters to boot.

(Herb's snakey-cannon thing? I wouldn't say 'dodged', he was getting pretty beat up in that fight

And it doesn't matter if he does dodge. It's canon that Usagi can sweep that thing around like a frigging huge sword. She levelled an army with it.

In the R movie she was not able to keep that up for long before getting tried, and the same goes for the end of season 3. Both times I don't recal the targets trying to get out of the way.

'Sides, even Rubeus' (stronger) energy stream attack is clearly survivable, since Moon does just that.

Now, if I recall that scene right, Usagi's was the one that won when they went to a smackfest. And that while she was under extreme stress from the gravity.

Chibi-Usa was messing with the ships power source.

This from someone who asserts that Venus took out an entire warehouse with a single shot?

I don't recall seeing what went on inside the building after the door closed.

I think it depends, more than anything else, on what form she's in.

In the anime do we actually see anything that proves beyond a reasonable dought that new forms mean more power?

Considering that your average, garden-variety monster of the week can routinely do just that, backing her into a corner via a vigorous assault (until she's bailed out by an ally getting it off her back for long enough to do one of her overkills) I'd say the point is pretty darn secure. If she didn't spontaneously manifest those powers then, one can hardly assert that she would suddenly do so in the future.

Moon has a meat shield for a reason.