Crystal Tokyo

[Pale Wolf]

As for the purification, you must admit that it would make the most sense for Usagi to do it the same way. After all she doesn't suddenly turn into a dictator between purifying various villains and the end of the series, so why would she afterwards?

Why the heck does nobody seem to read what I keep saying on this topic?!
She doesn't need to suddenly turn into a dictator. Stupidity, benevolence, and stubborn self-righteousness - all traits that Usagi has demonstrated time and time again - are all that are needed.
The nastiest people in the world were convinced that they were doing the right thing - ever heard of the Inquisition?

And while it is true that the crystal does operate on Usagi's will, it would be fair to say that it doesn't do it exactly as she wants. After all I doubt she would have wanted to lose her good friends after the fight. Rather her primary thought was forget, and the crystal did exactly that. It made her forget everything, not just the parts she wanted to forget.

You're actually providing evidence that makes the opposite point.
Basically, the problem was that she didn't properly frame her request - she lacked the mental discipline and focusing abilities, correct?
So, if she does purification... 'Be good'. 'Be happy'. With a similar lack in mental discipline, and the fact that the crystal is working on her definitions of such terms - where any decent ruler would make it work on the subject's definition of 'good' and 'happy', if they absolutely had to do it - it can happen quite easily. In fact, it will happen. Even if she were doing something purely wholesome, I wouldn't want that child with an overpowered rock and no goddamn control anywhere near my mind.

[crystlshake]

What would be really scarry would be if the exile was the result of something Usagi did in High school.
Prince Diamond glared with hatred burning in his eyes. "Sailor Senshi, because of you we've seen Hell!" As the other members of the Black Moon Family converged on the bewildered soldiers of love and justice they couldnt help but wonder why their opponents were shouting about bread....

[Shadell]

Why the heck does nobody seem to read what I keep saying on this topic?!
She doesn't need to suddenly turn into a dictator. Stupidity, benevolence, and stubborn self-righteousness - all traits that Usagi has demonstrated time and time again - are all that are needed.
The nastiest people in the world were convinced that they were doing the right thing - ever heard of the Inquisition?

A valid issue, but what I was trying to say is that Usagi went through no HUGE personality developments. She did cahnge and mature; but, remained mostly the same. That is to say she would still likely hold the same concept of purification as during the series. That if you recall involved no zombieification. Also looking at the BESM guide book I seem to recall it saying nothing about mindless zombies for the CT setting; rather it is a fairly normal and balanced society.

You're actually providing evidence that makes the opposite point.
Basically, the problem was that she didn't properly frame her request - she lacked the mental discipline and focusing abilities, correct?
So, if she does purification... 'Be good'. 'Be happy'. With a similar lack in mental discipline, and the fact that the crystal is working on her definitions of such terms - where any decent ruler would make it work on the subject's definition of 'good' and 'happy', if they absolutely had to do it - it can happen quite easily. In fact, it will happen. Even if she were doing something purely wholesome, I wouldn't want that child with an overpowered rock and no goddamn control anywhere near my mind.

I see your point, but there is one flaw. Namely purification has worked already and several times at that. Now she has little control and disipline, yet has produced good results with purification every time she has done it on screen. This would indicate that, while they do effect the crystal's effects, they aren't all that much of an issue in purifaction; at least going with what we've seen on camera.
Now as you have stated she COULD change the way she does purification entirely; but WHY would she. With the data now it seems logical that she would simply purify the world the same way she purified various villains.

[Daniel Jess Gibson]

Now as you have stated she COULD change the way she does purification entirely; but WHY would she. With the data now it seems logical that she would simply purify the world the same way she purified various villains.

The Purifications she does as Sailor Moon (as opposed to Queen Serenity) are `hand-crafted` one at a time work with the subject either asking for it, or having been proven evil and defeated in combat. Also the assumption was that she was removing the evil/Negaverse Energy from the person. These are enemies.
The mass-production Purification on people who had just awakened into a disaster would have an entirely different effect. Their greatest `crime` would be being overwhelmed with grief and loss, not subsumed with evil. These are just ordinary people.
I'll leave the argument to whether a person has to be at least a little `evil` to accomplish anything meaningfully.
There is a huge difference between removing an outside influence (e.g. eliminating drug use) and changing the person (e.g. removing the addictive tendencies) in fundimental ways. Both in what you do and what you intend.

[Shadell]

The Purifications she does as Sailor Moon (as opposed to Queen Serenity) are `hand-crafted` one at a time work with the subject either asking for it, or having been proven evil and defeated in combat. Also the assumption was that she was removing the evil/Negaverse Energy from the person. These are enemies.
The mass-production Purification on people who had just awakened into a disaster would have an entirely different effect. Their greatest `crime` would be being overwhelmed with grief and loss, not subsumed with evil. These are just ordinary people.
I'll leave the argument to whether a person has to be at least a little `evil` to accomplish anything meaningfully.
There is a huge difference between removing an outside influence (e.g. eliminating drug use) and changing the person (e.g. removing the addictive tendencies) in fundimental ways. Both in what you do and what you intend.

True there could be a difference as you suggest; however, you're forgetting one simple principle; namely okkam's razor. Simply put there is 0 backing whatsoever for your point about purification. We have no direct knowledge as to the specific nature of the freeze or the effects of such on humanity. Additionaly we have seen no evidence that mass purification would be any different then on a one on one scale. Ultimately the only judgement one could make about your theory is: Interesting but only a hypothesis. And due to the lack of evidence to support said hypothesis, one a scientist wouldn't consider using in a debate, at least not authoritatively.
Lets consider the author for a moment. Since we are attempting to establish this from a cannon point of view Takeuchi as well as the target audience become central factors here. Now SM is rather simplistic in design. Evil badguy shows up, spends part of a season unleashing youma for senshi to fight, dies and his next follower replaces him. It makes for a good if formulaic show. Second the target audience, namely smallish children and younger teens.
If we consider those factors, then the idea of a brainwashed earth created by the twisted desires of a few people seems a little... dark shall we say. Thus it is safe to say from a cannonical standpoint that the intent of crystal tokyo was a perfect utopia where everyone could be happy without being mindless slaves.
However due to the lack of evidence from cannon it is safe to say you could take whatever stance you want as to crystal tokyo being good/evil.

[Tovath]

Actully we do have evidence that the purifications are different, every one of of the one on one purifications was done on someone who had been infected with dark magic. So unless you are surjusting that every one on earth had dark magic the purification would be different.

[Shadell]

Actully we do have evidence that the purifications are different, every one of of the one on one purifications was done on someone who had been infected with dark magic. So unless you are surjusting that every one on earth had dark magic the purification would be different.

That is a very flawed observation. For one we have no clue what causes the great freeze and how it effects the people of earth. For all we know they might have dark magic in them. Unlikely but not unplausable. Secondly we have no clue how purification would effect those without dark magic.
In simpler terms you are saying that because all people we have seen be purified had dark magic, you need to have dark magic to be purified in that way. To grossly simplify the point it is saying that because all normal people have mouths, everyone with a mouth is a completely normal person as opposed to a sociopath or a rabbit.

[Pale Wolf]

Now as you have stated she COULD change the way she does purification entirely; but WHY would she. With the data now it seems logical that she would simply purify the world the same way she purified various villains.

Precisely as Tovath said.
There was 'dark energy' bullshit going on with all those villains. For instance, the purifying done in first season and Stars was to return an individual to their own form. Considering that the Black Mooners were fully human (if swamped by Wiseguy's dark crystal power at the point when they arrived), it would seem that their ancestors had no need to be returned to their own form.
But environmental catastrophes do not swamp Earth's populace in dark energy. Not unless 'dark energy' includes negative ki a la Shi Shi Hokodan, in which case purifying it is still an act of zombie production.

If we consider those factors, then the idea of a brainwashed earth created by the twisted desires of a few people seems a little... dark shall we say.

It is. But since we are capable of making reasonable conclusions to that nature purely from canon evidence, let's do so. Remember, the author's intent ceases to matter from the moment the work is complete - the canon is the sum totality of the work's universe, and what the author meant to do was not quite as important as what the author did do.

For one we have no clue what causes the great freeze and how it effects the people of earth.

It's generally assumed to be a simple environmental crisis - I believe Anchoku once mentioned that around that time, there was a theory in popular circulation about ice ages being a cycle. The 'Great Freeze' was most likely meant to be the simple activation of that cycle.
Although, as I just stated above, the fact that she didn't make it clear within canon means we're free to make what outlandish theories we like.

Secondly we have no clue how purification would effect those without dark magic.

Those purifications were the removal of the dark power.
And if it affects someone without it, then what the hell right does she have to tinker with our very being?

In simpler terms you are saying that because all people we have seen be purified had dark magic, you need to have dark magic to be purified in that way.

Well, it is true, seeing as that method of purification was the removal of the dark power.
I've got three sets of purification in mind here - if you can think of another that was used in a way you're suggesting, feel free to bring it up. And keep in mind these three sets varied in type. Yet they're all described as 'purification' - more evidence that the Purification could be something radically different.
First, there was what she did against possession youma (ie the Seven Shadows) in first season. She returned them to their own form.
Second, what she did against Phages in Stars. She reactivated the shine of their Star Seed, thus returning them to themselves.
Third, the adjustment she made to the Ayakashi Sisters - removing the dark crystal power from Wiseguy.

[Shadell]

Precisely as Tovath said.
There was 'dark energy' bullshit going on with all those villains. For instance, the purifying done in first season and Stars was to return an individual to their own form. Considering that the Black Mooners were fully human (if swamped by Wiseguy's dark crystal power at the point when they arrived), it would seem that their ancestors had no need to be returned to their own form.
But environmental catastrophes do not swamp Earth's populace in dark energy. Not unless 'dark energy' includes negative ki a la Shi Shi Hokodan, in which case purifying it is still an act of zombie production.

Enviromental catastrophe, IE: The earth being frozen over. We know nothing of the cause, and at least one SM villain tried to freeze the earth. Additionaly calling purification an act of zombie production lacks any cannonical support aside from the fact that you assume it wouldn't be similar to the origonal purification.

It is. But since we are capable of making reasonable conclusions to that nature purely from canon evidence, let's do so. Remember, the author's intent ceases to matter from the moment the work is complete - the canon is the sum totality of the work's universe, and what the author meant to do was not quite as important as what the author did do.

But genre does matter. If we are going by cannon, then the mood and themes are central to any debate about what isn't revealed entirely. To ignore the mood and theme is like taking a horror novel and saying that a character who disapeared went on to become a beautiful magical girl and save the world. No matter how much circumstantial evidence you can provide, it isn't cannon.
Secondly if you count BESM as cannon we have info. on how to run a CT set rp in the guidebooks. Nowhere does it mention that everyone has been turned into mindless zombies.

Well, it is true, seeing as that method of purification was the removal of the dark power.
I've got three sets of purification in mind here - if you can think of another that was used in a way you're suggesting, feel free to bring it up. And keep in mind these three sets varied in type. Yet they're all described as 'purification' - more evidence that the Purification could be something radically different.
First, there was what she did against possession youma (ie the Seven Shadows) in first season. She returned them to their own form.
Second, what she did against Phages in Stars. She reactivated the shine of their Star Seed, thus returning them to themselves.
Third, the adjustment she made to the Ayakashi Sisters - removing the dark crystal power from Wiseguy.

So within the SM world purification has been defined (Within cannon examples of such) As the complete removal of dark power from within a person. Wouldn't it seem odd to use the same word with a completely different definition?
Additionaly if you look at the Ayakashi Sisters, they stopped being vengance driven homicidal maniacs and started being productive members of society. That is to say it seems like it erased any mental illness.
Given Usagi's character and choices on the matter, it would seem odd to go from turning a villain into a perfectly happy and normal (As in not zombie-ish) member of society to turning friends and family into mindless zombies?
After all you've said that Usagi handles the crystal with will mostly, and that she lacks mental disipline to really control it. So if her intent is to purify, and she leaves normal people when it is done, wouldn't it logically follow that the results would stay the exact same?
It seems more likely that in each case Usagi came with the intent to purify and remove the evil, and a mental image of such in her mind. Thus if you look at examples 1 and 3, the actual process was different yet the result was the same. With method 2 she created well-adjusted members of society. IE: The result in each method is the same, a normal non-brainwashed member of society.
Why would the end result be any different for any other kind of purification?

[Pale Wolf]

Enviromental catastrophe, IE: The earth being frozen over. We know nothing of the cause, and at least one SM villain tried to freeze the earth.

I note that you don't address my comment that it was most likely meant to be a simple new ice age, purely natural. Thus I feel justified in ignoring this comment too. If my debate partner doesn't feel like addressing competing theories, then I don't have to either.

Additionaly calling purification an act of zombie production lacks any cannonical support aside from the fact that you assume it wouldn't be similar to the origonal purification.

Removal of negative ki, ie the potential/presence of negative emotions.
Zombie production. Enforced happiness.

But genre does matter. If we are going by cannon, then the mood and themes are central to any debate about what isn't revealed entirely. To ignore the mood and theme is like taking a horror novel and saying that a character who disapeared went on to become a beautiful magical girl and save the world. No matter how much circumstantial evidence you can provide, it isn't cannon.

This is correct. It's not canon. (And, since you mention it, it isn't a cannon either )
However, Crystal Tokyo as a real utopia isn't shown - it is said, by one of the most biased sources possible (Endymion). As such, that isn't canon either.
The material is the only source - genre, author's intent, target audience... those are tangential. As such, from that source, the conclusions we can provide are all equally valid. Whether the author was likely to actually make one of those conclusions true is impossible to guess seeing as we don't have a hardlink to Takeuchi's mind.
And as to your example: it would have been a poorly-done horror novel if the hints and evidence hadn't been dropped to make said disappeared character likely to have experienced some horrid fate. And no matter how much circumstantial evidence exists, the fact that magical girls probably don't exist in that world-setting is a strong hint against it (although fanfic writers are free to extend it if the evidence of a horrific fate wasn't dropped).
And I take some offense to your implying our evidence is 'circumstantial'. We're operating by taking the evidence and weaving it together into our conclusion.
You do the same. Crystal Tokyo as real utopia isn't the default anymore. Take canon evidence and prove that it is.

Secondly if you count BESM as cannon

Seeing as it was created by Guardians of Order and not Takeuchi or anyone related to Sailor Moon, I don't.

So within the SM world purification has been defined (Within cannon examples of such) As the complete removal of dark power from within a person. Wouldn't it seem odd to use the same word with a completely different definition?

It's already three different acts!

Additionaly if you look at the Ayakashi Sisters, they stopped being vengance driven homicidal maniacs and started being productive members of society. That is to say it seems like it erased any mental illness.
Given Usagi's character and choices on the matter, it would seem odd to go from turning a villain into a perfectly happy and normal (As in not zombie-ish) member of society to turning friends and family into mindless zombies?

It's still doing nasty things to one's mind, and the only reason what she did to the Ayakashis was even vaguely acceptable was because they asked for it.

It seems more likely that in each case Usagi came with the intent to purify and remove the evil, and a mental image of such in her mind.

And what is her definition of 'evil'?
The fact that she has such a concept as 'pure evil' in her mind innately makes her unqualified to do such a thing.

[Tovath]

first off if a villain had caused the Great Freeze then the Senshi would either have stoped it or died trying, so we can asume that it was as a reguler Enviromental catastrophe.
Next where it might seem odd to use the same word with a different definition, it has happened before (for exsample Indian can mean someone from India or it can mean Native American). English is a confusing language and haveing the souce matieral translated from japanesse makes it even harder

[Shadell]

I note that you don't address my comment that it was most likely meant to be a simple new ice age, purely natural. Thus I feel justified in ignoring this comment too. If my debate partner doesn't feel like addressing competing theories, then I don't have to either.

Sorry, I deleated that segment by accident and forgot to re-add it. No real point against it though, save for the one you just quoted.

Removal of negative ki, ie the potential/presence of negative emotions.
Zombie production. Enforced happiness.
This is correct. It's not canon. (And, since you mention it, it isn't a cannon either )
However, Crystal Tokyo as a real utopia isn't shown - it is said, by one of the most biased sources possible (Endymion). As such, that isn't canon either.

But the amount of evidence towards utopia is greater then the amount of evidence against it. Byt that I mean we have on testimonial that it is a utopia, while no character ever implies that it wouldn't be. Rather the general meat of your arguement is that Usagi is inadaquite as a leader and would fail to correctly fulfull her intention of creating a utopia.
And yet again I point to Okkam's razor. "The simplest arguement is most likely right"

The material is the only source - genre, author's intent, target audience... those are tangential. As such, from that source, the conclusions we can provide are all equally valid. Whether the author was likely to actually make one of those conclusions true is impossible to guess seeing as we don't have a hardlink to Takeuchi's mind.

I see, however genre, tone, and tehme are all a amjor part of the material. If the goal of this arguement is to decide how crystal tokyo would exist had we seen the city in cannon, thne you must concede that the tone and theme would play a central role in all of this. To ignore those is to ignore a large part of the work.

And as to your example: it would have been a poorly-done horror novel if the hints and evidence hadn't been dropped to make said disappeared character likely to have experienced some horrid fate. And no matter how much circumstantial evidence exists, the fact that magical girls probably don't exist in that world-setting is a strong hint against it (although fanfic writers are free to extend it if the evidence of a horrific fate wasn't dropped).
And I take some offense to your implying our evidence is 'circumstantial'. We're operating by taking the evidence and weaving it together into our conclusion.

First I would apoligize, I had no intention of insinuating that your evidence was circumstantial. Secondly we have seen no mindless purified zombies in SM, rather we have seen balanced people. Hints have been dropped to indicate a utopia as opposed to a dictatorship (People calling it a Utopia?) and again Okkam's razor would indicate that with the entirety of the info in canon, and the genre, that no one intended for CT to be a mindless zombie place, except for the fans who love turning the senshi into an evil and decadent group. (Which can be fun on occasion)

You do the same. Crystal Tokyo as real utopia isn't the default anymore. Take canon evidence and prove that it is.

Seeing as it was created by Guardians of Order and not Takeuchi or anyone related to Sailor Moon, I don't.

Ok, as that is a very valid point, I won't use BESM for canonical information any more.

It's already three different acts!

But they all have marked similarities as I have pointed out. And in each, the end result was a well balanced human being with no zombie nature. Okkam's razor again applies here and would indicate the results would stay consistent.

It's still doing nasty things to one's mind, and the only reason what she did to the Ayakashis was even vaguely acceptable was because they asked for it.

The sisters' actions tended to be somewhat... insane if you think about it. After they are purified they are no longer insane. Thus according to that arguement it wouldn't be moral to force a seriously insane person, who is detrimental to their health and others to accept psychiatric help that would allow them to function in normal society, while remaining a complete human being?

And what is her definition of 'evil'?
The fact that she has such a concept as 'pure evil' in her mind innately makes her unqualified to do such a thing.

So you agree that she removed the evil from them, and they were balanced people afterwards. That would indicate her definition of evil, doesn't include people who aren't happy 100% of the time, as in that she wouldn't leave the world as mindless zombies but as thinking intelligent people.
Have you considered that purification could be the removal of cancer, disease, psychological illness, and whatnot. All of those would be 'evil' things in Usagi's mind. And without them people wouldn't be zombies, rather they would be normal people.

[Shadell]

first off if a villain had caused the Great Freeze then the Senshi would either have stoped it or died trying, so we can asume that it was as a reguler Enviromental catastrophe.

And what if the senshi weren't able to fight... Or what if it took them a while to win, say till the formation of CT? Regardless it seems pointless to talk about that, when most everyone agrees there is NO real canonical support for any theory, save that the earth got frozen for some reason. Thus any arguement revolving around that should immediatly be declared invalid.
However as it is impossible to know exactly what purification meant without precise knowledge of the great freeze, then it seems eroneous to completely back any theory of CT. Ultimately any discussion can't proceed without knowledge of those two factors. As we have none the only right thing to do from a scientifical standpoint would be to make no assumptions. If we must make assumptions we should use Okkam's razor, which would be against the theory of a zombie CT.

Next where it might seem odd to use the same word with a different definition, it has happened before (for exsample Indian can mean someone from India or it can mean Native American). English is a confusing langue(sp?) and haveing the souce matieral translated from japanesse makes it even harder

A valid arguement, however that stems from a mistaken belief that they WERE the same (Columbus... wasn't that bright), and that problem exists mostly with common usage, additionaly most people would clarify "American Indian" if there was any other use of the other. It would be odd to refer to it as a purification when SM cast has experienced only one main type of purification, that being turning psycopathic youma into normal humans. In fact, in specialized fields definitions become very clear cut. Since the senshi are experts at that kind of stuff it would be odd to use the same word with a completely different meaning.

[Pale Wolf]

But the amount of evidence towards utopia is greater then the amount of evidence against it. Byt that I mean we have on testimonial that it is a utopia, while no character ever implies that it wouldn't be.

We have testimonial from one of the leaders of Crystal Tokyo. Real unbiased source. Are we now to take the Taliban at their word when they say their government is reasonable?

Rather the general meat of your arguement is that Usagi is inadaquite as a leader and would fail to correctly fulfull her intention of creating a utopia.

Not entirely.
More that Usagi would inadequately envision said utopia, and thus the crystal would operate off the simplistic definitions within her mind. For instance, I could entirely see her 'utopia' as giving everyone a 'Mamo-chan' analogue and a 'so in love it's almost sad' brain makeover - that's a large part of her happiness, and as such it will inherently infect her definition of happiness.
And also that any individual, let alone Usagi, is already inadequate to wave a crystal and make a utopia, because no matter what, when you come down to it, any utopia has to either alter aspects of human nature, or remove the people who possess them. And thus it's something I would be willing to throw my life against.

I see, however genre, tone, and tehme are all a amjor part of the material. If the goal of this arguement is to decide how crystal tokyo would exist had we seen the city in cannon, thne you must concede that the tone and theme would play a central role in all of this. To ignore those is to ignore a large part of the work.

But that's not the goal.
The goal is to go through the evidence provided in the source and use that to conclude what Crystal Tokyo is like. Since Takeuchi has apparently violated her own canon in several places, it is entirely reasonable - in fact almost unavoidable - to be forced to ignore certain aspects and focus on others to make any projections that weren't directly shown. When all the evidence can't be reconciled in any working theory, some of it has to be skipped.
Genre, tone, and theme are all aspects we as the readers project upon it. As such, they are the weakest 'evidence', and the ones that must be thrown away to clear the way for what all the other evidence suggests. And to my knowledge, since no one has brought up any points to the contrary, all the evidence within the actual source material is in line with our present hypotheses. That much evidence lining up from this source is actually pretty impressive.

First I would apoligize, I had no intention of insinuating that your evidence was circumstantial.

No problem. Wasn't much offense anyway.

Secondly we have seen no mindless purified zombies in SM, rather we have seen balanced people.

We've not seen much in the way of 'people' in Crystal Tokyo at all. We've seen the Senshi, and we've seen people willing to die to fight against it.

People calling it a Utopia?

Again, 'people' being the most ludicrously biased source possible.

except for the fans who love turning the senshi into an evil and decadent group. (Which can be fun on occasion)

'Evil', 'evil', 'evil'! Stop saying such a useless word!
'Evil' is a word that has almost completely lost meaning - right now, all it really means is 'person who doesn't agree with me'. As such, technically the Senshi and the entirety of Sailor Moon are evil. But because of the word's connotations and how uselessly subjective it is, I don't waste my time with it.
I'm evil. You're evil. We're all evil. Now leave it alone.
What we love doing is, essentially, projecting our world view on the fairy-tale world presented in Sailor Moon, and coming up with theories that we find far more reasonable than the excessively juvenile conclusions that Sailor Moon's worldview follows.
Which, I suppose, is a lot more cumbersome to say than 'make the senshi evil'

But they all have marked similarities as I have pointed out. And in each, the end result was a well balanced human being with no zombie nature. Okkam's razor again applies here and would indicate the results would stay consistent.

But that necessitates the presence of 'dark powers' placed on or within such a large segment of society that she could be described as 'purifying the world'. And that, as we've made clear, is only a theory which is not in line with some inductive evidence.

The sisters' actions tended to be somewhat... insane if you think about it. After they are purified they are no longer insane. Thus according to that arguement it wouldn't be moral to force a seriously insane person, who is detrimental to their health and others to accept psychiatric help that would allow them to function in normal society, while remaining a complete human being?

Right. And waving a magical rock and remaking a person without their consent is justifiable in the slightest. Remember that this is Usagi's definition of 'a complete human being' - as such, it is innately inadequate, since an individual person doesn't even have a complete understanding of themself, let alone the totality of human potential.
If I am insane, it is my right to remain insane until such time as I choose otherwise.
It is also the right of others to shoot me should I become a threat to anyone but myself, just to note that. And while I will defend myself to the death, I will also defend to the death their right to do it.
You can't 'remove' parts of a person and end up with a complete human being - just a caricature. Psychotherapy is somewhat of a different ballgame since it's an actual process of development. All the alteration and work comes from within, not a magical rock on the outside.

So you agree that she removed the evil from them, and they were balanced people afterwards. That would indicate her definition of evil, doesn't include people who aren't happy 100% of the time, as in that she wouldn't leave the world as mindless zombies but as thinking intelligent people.

Not so. Since in all those cases, she had an explicit influence to focus on removing - dark power infusions, restoring the shine, etc. That was not 'removing evil'. Merely restoring the native state.

Have you considered that purification could be the removal of cancer, disease, psychological illness, and whatnot. All of those would be 'evil' things in Usagi's mind. And without them people wouldn't be zombies, rather they would be normal people.

Again:
Come up with a 'purification' that reasonable people would willingly throw themselves into combat with a veritable goddess to prevent.

[Shadell]

We have testimonial from one of the leaders of Crystal Tokyo. Real unbiased source. Are we now to take the Taliban at their word when they say their government is reasonable?

Again, 'people' being the most ludicrously biased source possible.

Not by our standards. By their (demented morality) it is. Additionaly while it is not the best testimony, it is A testimony, additionaly I can't see Usagi being happy if everyone was a mindless zombie. She isn't a member of the Ranma cast who might delude themselves into thinking it was good, rather she is a genuinly nice person.

But that's not the goal.
The goal is to go through the evidence provided in the source and use that to conclude what Crystal Tokyo is like. Since Takeuchi has apparently violated her own canon in several places, it is entirely reasonable - in fact almost unavoidable - to be forced to ignore certain aspects and focus on others to make any projections that weren't directly shown. When all the evidence can't be reconciled in any working theory, some of it has to be skipped.

But what has to be skipped? It seems like a bad decision to skip certain material in favor of others without accepted standards as to what doesn't count.

Genre, tone, and theme are all aspects we as the readers project upon it. As such, they are the weakest 'evidence', and the ones that must be thrown away to clear the way for what all the other evidence suggests. And to my knowledge, since no one has brought up any points to the contrary, all the evidence within the actual source material is in line with our present hypotheses. That much evidence lining up from this source is actually pretty impressive.

SM is the definitive Magical Girl show, it's worldview is pretty obviously a rather simplistic case of 'good' vs. 'evil' They don't have the good side as controlling, because the series isn't targeted at the kind of audience who would appreciate that conflict. No, the villains are villains, and the heroes are heroes. It doesn't bother to get more complex then that, so why should the logical picture of CT, which exists in that same world, get more complex then that?

Come up with a 'purification' that reasonable people would willingly throw themselves into combat with a veritable goddess to prevent.

As to that point, we know next to nothing about the origonal BMF. They could have been complete psychos who enjoyed their mental state. Their children eventually managed to get rid of some of the traits via. darwinism, and once they recieved purification became normal members of society.

'Evil', 'evil', 'evil'! Stop saying such a useless word! Razz
'Evil' is a word that has almost completely lost meaning - right now, all it really means is 'person who doesn't agree with me'. As such, technically the Senshi and the entirety of Sailor Moon are evil. But because of the word's connotations and how uselessly subjective it is, I don't waste my time with it.
I'm evil. You're evil. We're all evil. Now leave it alone.
What we love doing is, essentially, projecting our world view on the fairy-tale world presented in Sailor Moon, and coming up with theories that we find far more reasonable than the excessively juvenile conclusions that Sailor Moon's worldview follows.
Which, I suppose, is a lot more cumbersome to say than 'make the senshi evil' Wink

Or demonify... But I could remember how to spell that at the time. However you do acknowledge that SM is built upon those world views. Thus the logical conclusion of the series would remain consistent with said

excessively juvenile conclusions that Sailor Moon's worldview follows.

Thus the most likely canonical CT would be the excessively juvinile concept of the perfect Utopia where everyone is happy, safe, and yet free at the same time.

Not entirely.
More that Usagi would inadequately envision said utopia, and thus the crystal would operate off the simplistic definitions within her mind. For instance, I could entirely see her 'utopia' as giving everyone a 'Mamo-chan' analogue and a 'so in love it's almost sad' brain makeover - that's a large part of her happiness, and as such it will inherently infect her definition of happiness.
And also that any individual, let alone Usagi, is already inadequate to wave a crystal and make a utopia, because no matter what, when you come down to it, any utopia has to either alter aspects of human nature, or remove the people who possess them. And thus it's something I would be willing to throw my life against.

Again, SM isn't built upon a mature world view, or a complex one, thus the idea of a perfect society is perfectly logical. If you try to shift SM to a more mature world view then CT probably wouldn't exist, as I can't really see Usagi turning humanity into zombies and then being content with it. Also, she is shown as being a busy yet good leader. What would she be busy doing if everyone were perfect little zombies?