Head Canon

Talk about all other fiction in this forum.

Head Canon

Postby toushin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:29 pm

Since Fanon is such a prominent aspect of Ranma fandom and the Ranma anime and manga are so different from each other. What fanfic do you think best represents the characters. Myself personally have two the first is Black Dragon’s Big Human on Campus though just for Ranma which is surprising since all of Black Dragon’s other stories are AU. Ranma1/2 is a comedy and Big Human on Campus reflects that while reading I never once thought Ranma wouldn’t do this even his fury about no one believing he’s human once explained is right up there with how he reacted to Shampoo suddenly hating him or Principle Kuno telling him his grades were bad and he would broadcast them on tv.

The second on is basically the entire Altered Destinies series while my favorite author is Jim Bader any story will suffice. These basically look and ranma ½ when taken seriously and every character is given there due. I have found myself using a lot of it for my own head canon and not just for Ranma.
toushin
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 244
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:04 am

The less fanon the better. Fanon is a plague on the Ranma fandom and should be discouraged and disparaged whenever spotted. So the best Ranma fanfic authors are the ones who avoid fanon and follow the characterization set by the canon manga.

This, incidentally disqualifies Jim Bader. Not just because he's a bad writer who never could let a story idea go without boosting it 100 times more than necessary, but his characterization was awful and taking Ranma 1/2 seriously is an exercise in madness.

I'd say the best writers for getting across the tone of the manga are Claymade and the Sage of Toads, though he'll gladly screw with tone for a joke, he clearly knows how to get it right. With his Urusei Yatsura fanfic "Sensei" being perhaps the single best translation of Takahashi's style to prose I've ever read.

Claymade, I assume, needs no description on why he's so good on this site of all places.
Image
Pata Hikari
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 127
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby AxelTheBunny » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:23 pm

Gotta disagree there, you've gotta remember this is fanworks, one can choose to write for a number of reasons. Hell I myself always disliked takahashi's style but not necessarily her ideas or characters. The issue with never using fanon is it leaves holes. Manga is a much less descriptive median than written stories. Additionally I find it more interesting to take the route of adding one's own style to it. As for characterization...I agree with you there for the most part at the very least the main subject of the story should be as close to Canon as possible during the start of a story. BUT to say they have to remain exactly the same throughout is a bit much. I've always preferred when characters experiences shape them. Saying Ranma should always act exactly as he is in the manga with no changes no matter what is silly, but I do believe that you still need to start with Ranma, and actually have him go through the development in a believable way.

As for fanon, well it does fill it's own role, specifically giving us good ways to fill holes in the series. It can be bad, and should be avoided if it defies Canon, but when there is no Canon explanation for things? Not so much... Not to say fanon should be strictly adhered too, nor is it always a good idea.

You need to take things from a case by case basis in my opinion.
AxelTheBunny
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 63
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby PCHeintz72 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:31 pm

Sigh... a lot of people care about this too much...

I take a simpler approach... if I like what I read/see, be it a story based on manga, based on anime, based on game, or based on other fannon, or based on X number of cliches or tropes... I do not care. Why, because in the end, I read for enjoyment. If I like it, I care not the source.

Now, that does not say I do not distinguish between canon, and fannon. I consider canon anything within the series, be it within the manga books, within the anime episodes, or within the game, or within the visual novel. I distinguish between them by viewing each as a differing continuity, thus none have seniority.

Where I get the most flak from fellow anime/manga fans on forums, is I do not consider author/creator word/interview/desire, as canon... that is what I consider author/creator intent, and since not actually provable within the series, is not admissible as canon. Example, author insists in Love Hina, Haruka is Keitaros cousin. But nowhere in anime or manga is that stated, and we have dozens of instances where he calls her aunt... thus, it is canon she is his aunt, and merely author intent she is his cousin.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:30 pm

AxelTheBunny wrote:The issue with never using fanon is it leaves holes. .


No it doesn't.

Fanon, especially Ranma fanon, is far more plot hole filled and nonsensical then canon. Because the majority of Ranma fanon came from people who had hardly read the story.
Image
Pata Hikari
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 127
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:05 pm

Yeah, the problem with Ranma 1/2 fanon -- in particular -- is that a lot of it was based on ignorance and misinformation in its early days, not trying to fill holes or putting a creative spin on anything. One of the main problems was that there were translations or summaries for the manga, often separate from the context of the illustrations, before Viz released most of the series. A specific fanon idea that came from that, and persists to this day despite the manga being as accessible as it is now, is that Ranma can use a technique (from the umi-ken) that literally allows him to become invisible if he covers his entire body with something (usually a type of cloth). Another main problem was that many authors following the first ones either took said first ones' writing as observing canon and/or did even less research, thus perpetuating and adding to the mess, and the cycle repeated itself over and over again.
Crescent Pulsar S
User avatar
Cosmic Power Senshi
Posts: 6406
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby AxelTheBunny » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:24 pm

As I stated, its the type of thing you need to take on a case by case basis. Look at the way most people describe Ki in Ranma stories. It is used to explain some techniques, like the moko takabisha, and it's easy to insinuate that other techniques utilize it as well. But most of what is usually used as the description of what one can do with Ki is pure speculation, as well as what it actually is. One could assume that Ki is the reason these martial artists can do physically impossible, superhuman feats however I dont recall this ever actually being said in canon.

It's fine if you personally dislike all use of fanon, but saying that your tastes are the definitive "good quality." Much of the speculation involved in most fandoms have been used to explain problems. A good example is the disguise field in Sailor Moon. As far as Im aware there is no canon equivalent, but it does explain how the main characters are not recognized despite their rather distinctive features.

Taking a puritanical view of fanon/canon is silly, because there are simply things that do fit within the world, but were not canon. As well as things in Fanon which yes do go against canon and should be avoided. I'm not going to go around being the fun police and shouting "you cant say that because the original canon didnt establish that/say that."

I do agree with PCHeintz that alot of people take this stuff too seriously, I've had people give me flack on PM for the fact I dont make my stories overtly comedic, because it "isnt canon" with the tone takahashi often writes. I always consider canon to be what was explained in series, or linked material such as in related material but I do agree that if the author didnt put it into the official material, then it cant very well be considered Canon. A good example is in Harry Potter with the Dumbledore being gay thing. It's not really necessary for the story, nor is there anything in the story that indicates one way or the other. It was simply a retroactive change so I can't really consider it canon, because one wouldnt be able to glean this reading any of the related official materials or the actual books. While I have no problem with people running with this interpretation, nor any problem with the idea itself I can't really consider retroactive changes outside of the official material to be canon.
Compare this to another, similar situation with the Percy Jackson books and their canon, where it was actually in the story that one character, Nico Di Angelo was gay, and an actual part of the character with several events in the story that are directly tied to this fact, and as said it is established in the sequel series. This is something I would consider canon, because it is within official continuity and official materials.


It's a matter of if something is established within the original source material or not to me when it comes to the question of if something is or is not canon.
AxelTheBunny
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 63
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:02 pm

AxelTheBunny wrote:As I stated, its the type of thing you need to take on a case by case basis. Look at the way most people describe Ki in Ranma stories. It is used to explain some techniques, like the moko takabisha, and it's easy to insinuate that other techniques utilize it as well. But most of what is usually used as the description of what one can do with Ki is pure speculation, as well as what it actually is. One could assume that Ki is the reason these martial artists can do physically impossible, superhuman feats however I dont recall this ever actually being said in canon.

I don't think you know exactly what fanon is.

Fanon is, essentially, what happens when a fanfic plot element or fan theory becomes wide spread enough that fanfic authors and other fans begin treating it as canon. It's not just something as assuming that in supernatural fictional martial arts a more fantastic interpretation of the concept of "Ki" is used. That purely mechanic issue really doesn't matter at all in story-telling.

AxelTheBunny wrote:It's fine if you personally dislike all use of fanon, but saying that your tastes are the definitive "good quality." Much of the speculation involved in most fandoms have been used to explain problems. A good example is the disguise field in Sailor Moon. As far as Im aware there is no canon equivalent, but it does explain how the main characters are not recognized despite their rather distinctive features.


And then there's the fanon where Sailor Pluto is some is some manipulative sociopath bringing about Crystal Tokyo Dystopia.

I wonder what the difference between the two is? Oh yeah, one is meaningless fluff used as an throwaway reference in a prose story and one is character and theme destroying stupidity.

AxelTheBunny wrote:Taking a puritanical view of fanon/canon is silly, because there are simply things that do fit within the world, but were not canon. As well as things in Fanon which yes do go against canon and should be avoided. I'm not going to go around being the fun police and shouting "you cant say that because the original canon didnt establish that/say that."


Well guess what, the majority of Ranma fanon does in fact not fit within the world and goes against canon. Maybe when fanfics where Nabiki is secretly providing for the Tendo family stop being written nobody will care if you name her mom "Kimiko"

AxelTheBunny wrote:I do agree with PCHeintz that alot of people take this stuff too seriously, I've had people give me flack on PM for the fact I dont make my stories overtly comedic, because it "isnt canon" with the tone takahashi often writes.


I can tell you right now with very reasonable certainty that what you did was have characters act like they were in a story with Takahashi's average tone but having the story treat the characters like they weren't. Takahashi herself would tone down characters actions in more serious scenes, so you need to do that.

AxelTheBunny wrote:I do agree with PCHeintz that alot of people take this stuff too seriously, I've had people give me flack on PM for the fact I dont make my stories overtly comedic, because it "isnt canon" with the tone takahashi often writes. I always consider canon to be what was explained in series, or linked material such as in related material but I do agree that if the author didnt put it into the official material, then it cant very well be considered Canon. A good example is in Harry Potter with the Dumbledore being gay thing. It's not really necessary for the story, nor is there anything in the story that indicates one way or the other. It was simply a retroactive change so I can't really consider it canon, because one wouldnt be able to glean this reading any of the related official materials or the actual books. While I have no problem with people running with this interpretation, nor any problem with the idea itself I can't really consider retroactive changes outside of the official material to be canon.


Yes you would actually, Dumbledore has a complete lack of any romantic history. The closest person he's shown to have been to in his past is Grindelwald. Concider that "confirmed bachelors" from the late 1800s early 1900s were basically closeted gay men.

Dumbledore being gay may not be important to the story, but it clearly makes sense with his character. Heck, I'd say it's better for representation that a character to just incidentally be gay then to repeatedly call attention to it.

And discounting author intent is silly. Every author has aspects of a characters history and thought-process that didn't get put down to paper but informs their actions.

But I am primarily talking about Ranma fanon. Because Ranma fanon has the unique and awful combination of A) Infesting the fandom in massive quantities compared to other fandom, B) Regularly contradicts canon, and C) Results in less interesting characters. Literally every Fanon incarnation of a Ranma character is less interesting to read and write about then their real canon counterparts.
Image
Pata Hikari
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 127
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby PCHeintz72 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:59 pm

Concider that "confirmed bachelors" from the late 1800s early 1900s were basically closeted gay men.

This is a bad stereotype, and I've seen it used to make a lot of nonsense claims for well known fictional characters of that era... The classical and well known charcters of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson from the mind of Sir Conan Doyle come to mind as having had that done to them.

And discounting author intent is silly. Every author has aspects of a characters history and thought-process that didn't get put down to paper but informs their actions.


There is a difference between not acknowledging author/creator intent as canon, and discounting it entirely. If we were to acknowledge author/creator intent as canon, then by that logic if they said they really meant a character to be 10 ft tall, green, plant based life form, from the planet Venus and breathed methane, we would have to follow along no matter what the canon material states...

In my opinion nothing and no one, not author/creator, materials owners, site owners, or legal owners, should be able to dictate canon to their readers/watchers. The sole exception is an author/creator making subsequent chapters/episodes/seasons making said material canon and expanding their universe.

Now... if someone writing a story wishes to use author intent in their story, I do not care, as I care if I like the story, not where the material came from... that does not make it canon.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby AxelTheBunny » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:28 pm

I suppose I should clarify on things a bit.

firstly I consider anything not established within the source material, but that is widely accepted as an aspect of the universe or at least a repeated idea within the fandom that is not necessarily an aspect of the story. My opinion of the fact of what constitutes canon is all information one could learn from the official released material on said universe. (meaning any other stories linked to it.)
I doubt you'd change your own position, as most of the matters of whether or not it's ok to utilize fanon which we disagree off are obviously purely a difference in taste, so I'd rather just agree to disagree. Im merely stating that not all fanon is the same, you need to take it on a case by case basis whether or not you agree with this is your business. At the end of the day.


I can tell you right now with very reasonable certainty that what you did was have characters act like they were in a story with Takahashi's average tone but having the story treat the characters like they weren't. Takahashi herself would tone down characters actions in more serious scenes, so you need to do that.


I don't particularly care how Takahashi writes, I'm a completely different individual with a different writing style, and I consider myself a fan of her work because of the ideas and characters in them, which I do strive to portray accurately. The idea I need to also follow her writing style is silly, because if I wanted to read "more takahashi" I'd simply go read one of her other manga.

Now onto the dumbledore thing. I dont consider it canon because it was not in the books, I do get that about history however I'd say it's silly to, after years following the conclusion of the story you suddenly drop things like that, outside of a followup story or the like and not within any actual stories or the like within the continuity then it's still not quite canon.

I dont have a problem with him being gay, nor does it have to be announced every two seconds or the like but it isnt IN any of the original material. My policy on if something is considered canon is that if I could read through all original source material, without reading anything about it outside the actual story, and any that are within the same universe and said fact, such as Dumbledore being gay isnt at all established in any of that then it can't very well be considered canon. Id also say that the comment on "confirmed bachelors"

I have no problem with him being gay, but it's not in any of the actual material, so it cant be considered canon. I also dont think you need to shove it into people's faces, but what does him being gay actually change about the character? What does it change about any of the actions he takes in the story?There is no way that one would be able to glean his sexuality based on all knowledge of his history, nor any of the original source material.
At the end of the day, it's not something anyone would be able to know purely from the story so I dont feel it can be considered canon. I do understand others may have different opinions, but i follow the belief that a story needs to stand or fall on it's own, and that applies to any aspects of that story.
I'm not gonna hold it against people whether they decide if he is or isn't gay, because fandom has been ignoring sexuality since the dawn of time, especially when said sexually isnt directly established in the source material.


Id also say that people are going to write what they want, sometimes using fanon works, and sometimes it makes the characters and stories less interesting. The issue with the statement you are making is that something being interesting is subjective to what you find interesting. I dont particularly think it matters, I'll just read the stories I find interesting, and avoid the ones I don't. I think you're taking this stuff a bit too seriously is all. And Id also say that often times it's merely an issue of how people interpret characters, I strive to portray all the characters I use accurately, but Im not going to go all Stazi on somebody if they dont want to put in the same level of effort to keep to the canon.
Last edited by AxelTheBunny on Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AxelTheBunny
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 63
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Spica75 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:31 pm

I do agree with PCHeintz that alot of people take this stuff too seriously


And to a ridiculous level.


#####

I do not care, as I care if I like the story, not where the material came from... that does not make it canon.


Hear hear...

#####

Yes you would actually, Dumbledore has a complete lack of any romantic history. The closest person he's shown to have been to in his past is Grindelwald. Concider that "confirmed bachelors" from the late 1800s early 1900s were basically closeted gay men.


:roll:

*facepalm*

Even if that was actually 100% true, which it is not, that does not confirm or prove absolutely anything.
And just in case you missed it, you are using a misconception about one culture to prove something within a COMPLETELY SEPARATE CULTURE! Yeah, just no. That's like using the knowledge that cannibals DO exist to say that that confirms you as being one.
Spica75
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2399
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Pata Hikari » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:02 pm

AxelTheBunny wrote:
I don't particularly care how Takahashi writes, I'm a completely different individual with a different writing style, and I consider myself a fan of her work because of the ideas and characters in them, which I do strive to portray accurately. The idea I need to also follow her writing style is silly, because if I wanted to read "more takahashi" I'd simply go read one of her other manga.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

The point is that if you're writing a story in a more serious tone, don't have the character act like they're still in a slapstick comic story. The characters are still in character, but the scope and scale of their actions changes depending on the tone.

This has literally nothing to do with Fanon anyways.

AxelTheBunny wrote:I doubt you'd change your own position, as most of the matters of whether or not it's ok to utilize fanon which we disagree off are obviously purely a difference in taste, so I'd rather just agree to disagree. Im merely stating that not all fanon is the same, you need to take it on a case by case basis whether or not you agree with this is your business. At the end of the day.


This is not a difference in taste.

When one reads Ranma 1/2 fanfiction they expect to see stories about the cast of Ranma 1/2.

Fanon Ranma characters do not act like Ranma 1/2 characters.

Therefore Fanon Ranma characters are a direct failure to write Ranma 1/2 fanfiction. It's bad. A sign of the writers failure.
Image
Pata Hikari
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 127
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:30 am

Fanon Ranma characters do not act like Ranma 1/2 characters.

The problem is, the situation is not near as black and white as you make it seem when it comes to judging stories and fannon content in them.

Take Ranma and Nabiki, since that was brought up earlier in the thread... we all know there are lots of fannon about them, much bad, some not so bad, depending upon the taste of the readers.

As an example, take a somewhat recent story like 'What Do You Want' by polenicus (personally would not mind an update),

This is IMHO a actual decent Ranma and Nabiki story, centering just on the two primary characters, mostly Ranma and Nabiki, some Kasumi, and some OOC that is either from a series I do not recognize, or author created characters (probably latter, as it is not in crossover section). Very little action in way of fights, or Takahashi type situational comedy.

I thought the Ranma cast in it, of what was shown, reasonably in character. It seems to avoid or not harp on the bulk of anime fannon cliches, and be a fairly nice slice of life on their rocky relationship as friends, with Nabiki actually wanting to help Ranma out of a slump based on actions of her sister. They blunder through things, and make mistakes, and not make mistakes. Their characterization seems to fit considering the situation the events of the story have made for them...

Now, here is the problem... nowhere does the base situation happen in canon, nowhere do those two get a couple days like this of comparative 'normal-ness' without all the other characters rushing in to make their various claims/demands/etc... Ranma is still Ranma but need not act like a jerk nor is his pride on the line. Nabiki is still Nabiki but need not put up any form of facade or money grubbing or anti-compassionate aire. Thus is not a canon type story or canon type feel and the situation is thus fannon.

Then... is the story bad? To me, no... to you, or someone else... maybe. It is all a matter of what tolerances we are willing to make in the pursuit of reading a potentially good story.

I happen to like and enjoy a wide range of stories, both non-crossover and crossover, of Ranma... Many by authors that are controversial (VimesEnthusiast, PixelWriter1, Ozzallos, Brian Randall(Durandall), Jeffrey OneShot Wong, Innortal, even Josh Temple to name a few )... some have fannon, some have cliches, some have tropes, some have harems, some have him leaving Nerima, some have a favored pairing, etc... All have something in them I can find to like and enjoy in at least some of their respective stories, and no, I do not think there is a single author I've liked every story from.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Pata Hikari » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:16 am

PCHeintz72 wrote:I thought the Ranma cast in it, of what was shown, reasonably in character. It seems to avoid or not harp on the bulk of anime fannon cliches, and be a fairly nice slice of life on their rocky relationship as friends, with Nabiki actually wanting to help Ranma out of a slump based on actions of her sister. They blunder through things, and make mistakes, and not make mistakes. Their characterization seems to fit considering the situation the events of the story have made for them...


Out of character for Nabiki. She would never want to actually help Ranma out of a slump. She barely gives a crap about Akane, let alone Ranma.

And frankly, that story has the same irritating issue with a lot of stories that try and pair Ranma up with someone other than Akane, the fact that it takes place post series. Breaking them up after literally everything they go through doesn't make sense for either of their characters. You need to diverge at least pre-Ryugenzawa for it really be believable that they'd break up, though it'd be better to diverge earlier if not just make it a full AU.

PCHeintz72 wrote:Thus is not a canon type story or canon type feel and the situation is thus fannon.


No it isn't. It is not such a commonly accepted fan theory or plot device that it's mistaken for canon. It's a continuation fanfic with an out of character premise and the most nonsensical pairing possible in the Ranma fandom. And yes, I am including slash pairings in when saying that.

PCHeintz72 wrote: nowhere do those two get a couple days like this of comparative 'normal-ness' without all the other characters rushing in to make their various claims/demands/etc...


Now this is fanon. The idea that the Ranma and the rest of the cast have no peace whatsoever and is constantly having his life barged into. This isn't actually supported by canon, since most chapters and story arcs start with the cast just going about their daily lives. We see these weird events because they're the interesting parts. Even with the floating timeline the series exists in, many chapters take place several days with brief bursts of action.

PCHeintz72 wrote:Then... is the story bad?


I can't say. I have no interest in reading it because I have no interest in any post-series fanfics that contrive reasons to break Ranma and Akane up. If someone is going to pair Ranma with someone else do it before Ranma and Akane nearly die for each other.

PCHeintz72 wrote:Many by authors that are controversial (VimesEnthusiast, PixelWriter1, Ozzallos, Brian Randall(Durandall), Jeffrey OneShot Wong, Innortal, even Josh Temple to name a few)


Of this list, Durandall is the only one I can say who was ever good. VimesEnthusiast and Innortal are absolute garbage, Wong was just a bad writer who could not stop, PixelWriter1 is basically the same, Ozzallos is basically using Ranma as their transgender fetish fuel, and I have no judgement on Josh Temple because I haven't read them.

Most of these aren't bad necessarily because of fanon. (VimesEnthusiast in particular manages to create special new kinds of awful without any help.). Fanon is simply a symptom of greater writing issues, but it's usually the easiest one to detect because it's often clear from the first few paragraphs.
Image
Pata Hikari
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 127
 

Re: Head Canon

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:54 am

I've a question, then. You must read, to form your opinions. Who do you read? I looked at your "Favorite Authors" list. Our only overlaps are PurseMonger and WFROSE, and neither of them seem that canon-bound to me.
Visit Big Washuu's Lab of Arcane Knowledge at http://washuu.net
Ellen Kuhfeld
User avatar
Sailor Starlight
Posts: 2228
 

Next

Return to Fiction Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron