Where does Crystal tokyo deconstruction come for

[Knight of Ranko]

the lenghty and well written but laughably AU "Clean" where Minako trys to overthrown Crystal tokyo

another fic written from Wisemans POV

ANOTHER where Chibi Usa immediately abdicates after her mothers death


where do all these fics come from?

[PCHeintz72]

Ehhh... what do you mean, 'Where do they come from?' they come from the minds of those authors.

I could name probably a dozen more, mostly crossovers I've read over the years...

Like one where Chibi-Usa overthrows her parents, banishes them to a monestary, and beheads the inners after they betray her (which was actually quite good, and I wish the author would continue).

Or one where an outsider takes it upon himself to alter the perceptions of several of the inners (by teaching and training, not mind control or magic), thus preventing the cycle.

Or one where The time gates self destruct, giving Ranma an opportunity to undermine the senshi and make the outers loyal to him.

etc...

If I had to put it to a reason, it is that at least some human beings believe that perfection, or a utopia, cannot possibly exist as depicted in Sailor Moon. Without even thinking about all those age old discussions about *how* it comes about (and no, I do nto want to go there *again*), merely that it *is*. As such, it must be brought down. it also would be a vehicle for action, conflict, and motivation, and keeping readers interest and on their toes...

Perfection, or utopia, for the masses, is an unknown in current real world, and right or wrong most humans have a fear of the unknown...

[Maximara]

Ehhh... what do you mean, 'Where do they come from?' they come from the minds of those authors.

I could name probably a dozen more, mostly crossovers I've read over the years...

Like one where Chibi-Usa overthrows her parents, banishes them to a monestary, and beheads the inners after they betray her (which was actually quite good, and I wish the author would continue).

Or one where an outsider takes it upon himself to alter the perceptions of several of the inners (by teaching and training, not mind control or magic), thus preventing the cycle.

Or one where The time gates self destruct, giving Ranma an opportunity to undermine the senshi and make the outers loyal to him.

etc...

If I had to put it to a reason, it is that at least some human beings believe that perfection, or a utopia, cannot possibly exist as depicted in Sailor Moon. Without even thinking about all those age old discussions about *how* it comes about (and no, I do nto want to go there *again*), merely that it *is*. As such, it must be brought down. it also would be a vehicle for action, conflict, and motivation, and keeping readers interest and on their toes...

Perfection, or utopia, for the masses, is an unknown in current real world, and right or wrong most humans have a fear of the unknown...

Another issue is that one person's utopia can be another's dystopia. Also if you really look at Crystal Tokyo it is NOT a utopia as it has had many battles over the course of centuries with the Black Moon Family "that have killed many" ( see http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 )

More over as pointed out Zwzn in the manga "the citizens of Crystal Tokyo are dissolving like Code name Sailor V/Beryl arc youma" "If they turn to dust when cut off from the Silver Crystal's power it is very possible the Silver Crystal was the only thing holding them together."

In the anime Crystal Tokyo has an even darker undertone as people are subjected to the "Cleansing" which supposedly removes "evil" thoughts (what qualifies as evil?).

"In the anime, the people of the Black Moon Clan refused the purification offered by Neo-Queen Serenity at the formation of Crystal Tokyo, and were subsequently banished by her to the planet Nemesis." (Prince Dimande - WikiMoon)

"Used her?" Replied Diamond. "Rubbish! We were banished by the people on Earth, to a cold, dim, isolated and distant moon! It's worth losing one of our own, if it means getting revenge on the people of the Earth!" ("Birth of the Wicked Lady" Sailor Moon Episode 78)

While at odds with Prince Dimande's account King Endymion gives us this:

"A great calamity befell the Earth that you live on now. And the Earth settled into a cold sleep. It slumbered on for a long, long time. In time it became the thirtieth century, and with the power of the Silver Crystal and Neo Queen Serenity, Earth was awakened. With Neo Queen Serenity as their queen, Earth began to prosper, centered around the future city, Crystal Tokyo."

"But evil beings appeared who wanted to conquer this peaceful world. After fighting numerous intense battles, we suppressed those evil beings. However many of them did not want to be cleansed by the Silver Crystal and they journeyed out into space." (ep 83)

As I said before Crystal Tokyo comes off as Huxley's Brave New World with the Cleansing as soma. In fact, if you really look at it there are many echos of Brave New World in Crystal Tokyo. Also the Hero of Thousand Faces trope Sailor Moon follows has its own dark untones - a frightening similarity to the ideals expressed by the Nazis (see The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad for an example of just how close the trope is)

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Another issue is that one person's utopia can be another's dystopia. Also if you really look at Crystal Tokyo it is NOT a utopia as it has had many battles over the course of centuries with the Black Moon Family "that have killed many" ( see http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 )

While at odds with Prince Dimande's account King Endymion gives us this:

"A great calamity befell the Earth that you live on now. And the Earth settled into a cold sleep. It slumbered on for a long, long time. In time it became the thirtieth century, and with the power of the Silver Crystal and Neo Queen Serenity, Earth was awakened. With Neo Queen Serenity as their queen, Earth began to prosper, centered around the future city, Crystal Tokyo."

Exactly. How can they have battles over the course of centuries when everyone was put under ice up until the thirtieth century, and the story is not said to have taken place beyond the thirtieth century? We can only assume that any battles that took place happened within the thirtieth century, because we neither know when they happened or even -- I believe -- when the Earth froze over.

More over as pointed out Zwzn in the manga "the citizens of Crystal Tokyo are dissolving like Code name Sailor V/Beryl arc youma" "If they turn to dust when cut off from the Silver Crystal's power it is very possible the Silver Crystal was the only thing holding them together."

Zwzn? Oh, noes!

And the problem with what was pointed out is: not only is it terrible logic to assume that the people were held together by the Ginzuishou, but that the reasoning behind it -- as far as I can tell, based on how much this is being taken from the anime -- was pieced together from two different continuities. Even if it wasn't, there's no basis for the Ginzuishou holding them together, and much more basis to believe that it was the black crystal that was responsible.

In the anime Crystal Tokyo has an even darker undertone as people are subjected to the "Cleansing" which supposedly removes "evil" thoughts (what qualifies as evil?).

I would like to see exactly where in the anime it is explicitly explained what the cleansing does. As far as any examples that I can recall go (regarding those girls working under Rubeus, I believe), a cleansing is more likely to remove outside influences of evil, not innate, or add a desirable trait itself beyond warding away more of such outside influences.

"In the anime, the people of the Black Moon Clan refused the purification offered by Neo-Queen Serenity at the formation of Crystal Tokyo, and were subsequently banished by her to the planet Nemesis." (Prince Dimande - WikiMoon)

I don't remember much about this part of the anime, but I'd like to note that they were given a choice of whether to be cleansed or not. Fanon would have us believe that the cleansing was enforced and required escape, not refusal. True, being banished isn't a nice thing to do, but -- then again -- do we really know the circumstances in detail, and thus whether these people were truly in an unfair situation when they were given the choice to stay (and be cleansed) or go? After all, even the alien invaders from before were given the choice of being cleansed after their defeat, and most refused, which also resulted in a banishment.

[Maximara]

Maximara=Another issue is that one person's utopia can be another's dystopia. Also if you really look at Crystal Tokyo it is NOT a utopia as it has had many battles over the course of centuries with the Black Moon Family "that have killed many" ( see http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 )

[restored moved sections please note bolded parts]

In the anime Crystal Tokyo has an even darker undertone as people are subjected to the "Cleansing" which supposedly removes "evil" thoughts (what qualifies as evil?).

"In the anime, the people of the Black Moon Clan refused the purification offered by Neo-Queen Serenity at the formation of Crystal Tokyo, and were subsequently banished by her to the planet Nemesis." (Prince Dimande - WikiMoon)

"Used her?" Replied Diamond. "Rubbish! We were banished by the people on Earth, to a cold, dim, isolated and distant moon! It's worth losing one of our own, if it means getting revenge on the people of the Earth!" ("Birth of the Wicked Lady" Sailor Moon Episode 78)

While at odds with Prince Dimande's account King Endymion gives us this:

"A great calamity befell the Earth that you live on now. And the Earth settled into a cold sleep. It slumbered on for a long, long time. In time it became the thirtieth century, and with the power of the Silver Crystal and Neo Queen Serenity, Earth was awakened. With Neo Queen Serenity as their queen, Earth began to prosper, centered around the future city, Crystal Tokyo."

Exactly. How can they have battles over the course of centuries when everyone was put under ice up until the thirtieth century, and the story is not said to have taken place beyond the thirtieth century? We can only assume that any battles that took place happened within the thirtieth century, because we neither know when they happened or even -- I believe -- when the Earth froze over.

Please note that I am comparing the manga and the old anime. In the manga AFAIK there is no great freeze and many great battles can occur. The old anime is quite spacific that the Great Freeze happened sometime in the 20th century. In the old DIC translation it si expressly stated that Crystal Tokyo is in the 30th century; I don't know about the newer translation if that is still true.

If you are wondering why I am saying old anime all of a sudden that is because original anime got a redub in the early 2000s fixing a lot of the wonky things that had been done in the US version. Oh we also have a NEW Sailor Moon anime out (Sailor Moon Crystal) and it unlike the 1990s one is more closely follows the manga.

From what I have read Sailor Moon Crystal is planned to go to at least the Death Phantom saga. So this manga vs anime continuity argument needs to be clarified: 1990s version, 2000 version or the new Sailor Moon Crystal

Maximara=More over as pointed out Zwzn in the manga "the citizens of Crystal Tokyo are dissolving like Code name Sailor V/Beryl arc youma" "If they turn to dust when cut off from the Silver Crystal's power it is very possible the Silver Crystal was the only thing holding them together."

Zwzn? Oh, noes!

And the problem with what was pointed out is: not only is it terrible logic to assume that the people were held together by the Ginzuishou, but that the reasoning behind it -- as far as I can tell, based on how much this is being taken from the anime -- was pieced together from two different continuities. Even if it wasn't, there's no basis for the Ginzuishou holding them together, and much more basis to believe that it was the black crystal that was responsible.

Zwzn expressly stated Code name Sailor V which is a MANGA; there is NO anime version of this. He expressly is comparing theway the youma dissolve in the Code name Sailor V MANGA and Beryl arc (since is is connected to Code name Sailor V this is the MANGA version as well) to the way the human IN THE MANGA dissolve. No anime is mentioned.

And it isn't "terrible logic" to assume the people were held together by the Ginzuishou . In fact, it is a common trope going back to the tales of fairie of the middle ages--removed from the 'magic' that kept them young they age to dust.

"In the anime, the people of the Black Moon Clan refused the purification offered by Neo-Queen Serenity at the formation of Crystal Tokyo, and were subsequently banished by her to the planet Nemesis." (Prince Dimande - WikiMoon)

I don't remember much about this part of the anime, but I'd like to note that they were given a choice of whether to be cleansed or not. [/quote]

Choice of evils as the song in the animated version of Return of the King goes. It is like the 'choice' Bugs gives Daffy throughout one of their cartoons - he can be shot by Elmer right there or when Elmer gets home. Now matter what Daffy chooses he still gets blasted.

After all, even the alien invaders from before were given the choice of being cleansed after their defeat, and most refused, which also resulted in a banishment.

The aliens in the anime (between Beryl and Wiseman) IIRC were not under any outside force. They were simply out of desperation trying to supply their tree with energy as they needed it to stay alive. So if the Cleansing only removes outside evil influences their would be no reason to cleanse them.

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Please note that I am comparing the manga and the old anime. In the manga AFAIK there is no great freeze and many great battles can occur. The old anime is quite spacific that the Great Freeze happened sometime in the 20th century. In the old DIC translation it si expressly stated that Crystal Tokyo is in the 30th century; I don't know about the newer translation if that is still true.

I'm not seeing much of a comparison being made. I see two mentions from the manga, one with incorrect information, and all the rest is from the anime.

Plus, there are not many great battles in the manga, nor any that lasted for centuries (as was mentioned in a prior post). This is true of both continuities. The anime had the world put on ice for a while, while the manga had the long peace that was only interrupted once (centuries before the thirtieth century, not for centuries) before the Black Moon made their first, virtually victorious appearance.

Zwzn expressly stated Code name Sailor V which is a MANGA; there is NO anime version of this. He expressly is comparing theway the youma dissolve in the Code name Sailor V MANGA and Beryl arc (since is is connected to Code name Sailor V this is the MANGA version as well) to the way the human IN THE MANGA dissolve. No anime is mentioned.

And it isn't "terrible logic" to assume the people were held together by the Ginzuishou . In fact, it is a common trope going back to the tales of fairie of the middle ages--removed from the 'magic' that kept them young they age to dust.

Sorry, I was a bit confused because of the vast majority and focus of anime references, and Beryl was included as an example.

Still, that isn't the issue, anyway. It's still terrible logic because even your example is reaching out to an entirely different source in addition to equating a commonality as a reasonable conclusion via superficial comparison. What do faeries and mythology from the middle ages, in Europe and East-Asia, have anything to do with people beginning to dissolve after a giant, black crystal pretty much levels an entire city in a fictitious future? (And it was probably affecting the entire planet, besides.) Tell me exactly what evidence you have, from the series itself, that proves that these people need the Ginzuishou in order to "keep it together" as opposed to being affected by the black crystal that was quite obviously being used toward such ends? All you're doing is making a logical fallacy about the nature of the death because the deaths appear similar. The thing is, though, is that they're not the same. Death happens instantly with the youma, while those who weren't initially killed by the black crystal eventually died and then dissolve over time, which is more indicative of something making them wither away rather than being cut off from the very thing keeping them together. There are clear examples of instant death and dissolving in the series, when someone loses whatever is keeping them alive, such as when a star seed is removed, or one of Galaxia's bracelets is destroyed/removed. The people who dissolved after the Black Moon's first attack do not fit those examples, nor does it match what happened to the youma for them to dissolve, seeing as they were destroyed directly rather than cut off from what gave them form/life.

Choice of evils as the song in the animated version of Return of the King goes. It is like the 'choice' Bugs gives Daffy throughout one of their cartoons - he can be shot by Elmer right there or when Elmer gets home. Now matter what Daffy chooses he still gets blasted.

So? That doesn't tell me if the choices being offered were justified or not. Just because someone is innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean we must assume they were innocent if we're ignorant of the reason for the judgement. Before I can either agree or disagree with you, I must first know the reason for the choice, or else it wouldn't make sense to decide who was in the right and who was in the wrong.

The aliens in the anime (between Beryl and Wiseman) IIRC were not under any outside force. They were simply out of desperation trying to supply their tree with energy as they needed it to stay alive. So if the Cleansing only removes outside evil influences their would be no reason to cleanse them.

I wasn't referring to the "Doom Tree" arc, but what was quoted from episode 83 in your post, just prior to Endymion getting to Nemesis and the Dark Moon. (Although the translations differ. In one most didn't accept the cleansing and simply journeyed into space (which doesn't sound right for would-be-conquerors who lost), and in another the ones who didn't accept being cleansed were banished (which is more in line with the animation depicting their leave of Earth).)

[Maximara]

Plus, there are not many great battles in the manga, nor any that lasted for centuries (as was mentioned in a prior post). This is true of both continuities.

Not exactly right

Go back and read http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 and http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=75

"Many times, they have begun battles and killed many" We may not see them but the King states there have been battles where many have died.

Also if the Black Moon clan are really aliens as you claim they can't be rebels; they would be invaders. Big difference. It is akin the nonsense that is in the claim that Paul Revere was yelling 'The British are coming"; at the time he made his ride the people he was yelling to WERE the British!

The King also states "Today, almost all the people on Earth have long life span from the power of the Silver Imperium Crystal" but elsewhere we have "They have not been given eternal life. The Phantom's time is buried several centuries in the past. Even they may not known if they are the decedents of Phantom"

The king implies the people who would to become the Black moon clan were not given immortality before they become rebels. Otherwise he would have said they had their immortality removed. The more iI look at what the king is saying in the manga the more I get the impression of something not being quite right.

Why did the Black Moon Clan rebel in the first place?
Why were its members not able to be made immortal before they became rebels?

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Not exactly right

Go back and read http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 and http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=75

"Many times, they have begun battles and killed many" We may not see them but the King states there have been battles where many have died.

No, it's fairly right within the context of your initial premise, regarding Crystal Tokyo not being a utopia because there were so many battles over a significant period of time. There is a problem with your reasoning in both continuities. For the anime, the peaceful aspect of Crystal Tokyo was not ruined from within, since it was ultimately destroyed by those hailing from Nemesis. (I would like to note that it can still be considered a utopia if unwanted elements were weeded out in the past in order to produce it.) Before then, by the sound of things, it seems like Crystal Tokyo is doing very well socially and economically, at the very least. In addition to that, we can't say for certain that Crystal Tokyo has been around for more than a century. In the manga, Crystal Tokyo can be assumed to be a utopia for centuries at a time, with only one known incident to separate those centuries before the rebels and Dark Moon turned up. I'd like to point out that a utopia does not need to be absolutely perfect, and that a short period of trouble does not redefine the long periods where there wasn't any. Crystal Tokyo may not have been a utopia all of the time, but certainly the majority of the time. The elements of trouble were very localized, after all, not a problem arising from society, who have been said to have essentially forgotten such troubles by the time both occurred.

Beyond that, there's nothing that says Crystal Tokyo wasn't doing so well in any particular facet of their civilization.

Also if the Black Moon clan are really aliens as you claim they can't be rebels; they would be invaders. Big difference. It is akin the nonsense that is in the claim that Paul Revere was yelling 'The British are coming"; at the time he made his ride the people he was yelling to WERE the British!

Um... I never said that the Black Moon were aliens, unless they happened to be banished twice. I'm referring to the aliens ("belligerent forces from beyond the universe" is what the translation I'm referring to says) who tried to conquer Crystal Tokyo before the Black Moon turned up.

The King also states "Today, almost all the people on Earth have long life span from the power of the Silver Imperium Crystal" but elsewhere we have "They have not been given eternal life. The Phantom's time is buried several centuries in the past. Even they may not known if they are the decedents of Phantom"

The king implies the people who would to become the Black moon clan were not given immortality before they become rebels. Otherwise he would have said they had their immortality removed. The more iI look at what the king is saying in the manga the more I get the impression of something not being quite right.

I honestly can't make any sense out of what you're trying to say. I don't see how what you're saying is connected with the point you made, or how that -- in turn -- is connected to people dissolving. First of all, we are explicitly told that their lifespans average a thousand years, so immortality has nothing to do with it. Second, being given a long lifespan with the use of the Ginzuishou does not -- by any means -- imply that their very lives are now dependent on being connected with it in some way.

Overall, you've yet to connect your conclusions to anything that supports them.

Why did the Black Moon Clan rebel in the first place?
Why were its members not able to be made immortal before they became rebels?

I'm pretty sure the answer to the first one is given for the manga, more or less, and wouldn't be of any help to you if you're intent on making your case. I don't recall if a reason was given in the anime. As for the other question: long lifespan does not equal immortality/eternal life. It could just be a translation issue, but Endymion's choice of words does not make him very reliable for reference.

[Maximara]

For the anime, the peaceful aspect of Crystal Tokyo was not ruined from within, since it was ultimately destroyed by those hailing from Nemesis.

Except that even the 1990s version states that the people on Nemesis originally came from Earth. SInce they come from Earth the destruction ultimately came from within!

(I would like to note that it can still be considered a utopia if unwanted elements were weeded out in the past in order to produce it.)

That depends on your definition of "utopia"; the weeding out of "unwanted elements" may have been viewed at "proper" in Plato's Republic but by modern views it has a decidedly dystopia bent.

The Learning Channel had a series called Great Books (1993-2006) which only went over the book in question but gave a biography of the author's life. One of the episodes was on H G Wells War of the Worlds.

"And the ethical system of these men of the New Republic, the ethical system which will dominate the world state, will be shaped primarily to favour the procreation of what is fine and efficient and beautiful in humanity—beautiful and strong bodies, clear and powerful minds, and a growing body of knowledge—and to check the procreation of base and servile types, of fear-driven and cowardly souls, of all that is mean and ugly and bestial in the souls, bodies, or habits of men. To do the latter is to do the former; the two things are inseparable. And the method that nature has followed hitherto in the shaping of the world, whereby weakness was prevented from propagating weakness, and cowardice and feebleness were saved from the accomplishment of their desires, the method that has only one alternative, the method that must in some cases still be called in to the help of man, is death. In the new vision death is no inexplicable horror, no pointless terminal terror to the miseries of life, it is the end of all the pain of life, the end of the bitterness of failure, the merciful obliteration of weak and silly and pointless things...." - Anticipations (1902)

If you didn't get the point they then show pictures of the death camps while reiterating Wells comment on "the merciful obliteration of weak and silly and pointless things"

"And how will the New Republic treat the inferior races? How will it deal with the black? how will it deal with the yellow man? how will it tackle that alleged termite in the civilized woodwork, the Jew? Certainly not as races at all. [...] And the Jew also it will treat as any other man. It is said that the Jew is incurably a parasite on the apparatus of credit. If there are parasites on the apparatus of credit, that is a reason for the legislative cleaning of the apparatus of credit, but it is no reason for the special treatment of the Jew. If the Jew has a certain incurable tendency to social parasitism, and we make social parasitism impossible, we shall abolish the Jew, and if he has not, there is no need to abolish the Jew." - Anticipations (1902)

"And for the rest, those swarms of black, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people, who do not come into the new needs of efficiency? Well, the world is a world, not a charitable institution, and I take it they will have to go." - Anticipations (1902)

Before then, by the sound of things, it seems like Crystal Tokyo is doing very well socially and economically, at the very least.

And that is how Brave New World is depicted. Again I compare Crystal Tokyo to Huxley's creation.

Maximara=Also if the Black Moon clan are really aliens as you claim they can't be rebels; they would be invaders. Big difference. It is akin the nonsense that is in the claim that Paul Revere was yelling 'The British are coming"; at the time he made his ride the people he was yelling to WERE the British!

Um... I never said that the Black Moon were aliens, unless they happened to be banished twice. I'm referring to the aliens ("belligerent forces from beyond the universe" is what the translation I'm referring to says) who tried to conquer Crystal Tokyo before the Black Moon turned up.

Uh WHERE is this? Neither of the pages previously posted here say anything about this. If anything they suggest everything was fine and then the Doom (Death) Phantom shows up and went on a crime-killing rampage. We exiled him and just after everybody was starting to forget these Black Moon guys showed up.

Maximara=The King also states "Today, almost all the people on Earth have long life span from the power of the Silver Imperium Crystal" but elsewhere we have "They have not been given eternal life. The Phantom's time is buried several centuries in the past. Even they may not known if they are the decedents of Phantom"

The king implies the people who would to become the Black moon clan were not given immortality before they become rebels. Otherwise he would have said they had their immortality removed. The more iI look at what the king is saying in the manga the more I get the impression of something not being quite right.

I honestly can't make any sense out of what you're trying to say.

It's simple. Nearly everyone on Earth is supposed to be immortal--so why aren't these people?

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Except that even the 1990s version states that the people on Nemesis originally came from Earth. SInce they come from Earth the destruction ultimately came from within!

...That's very twisted logic. So, because they or their ancestors just happened to be a part of the civilization's past, even removed from it and developing into an entity all their own their actions must reflect upon said civilization as if they were one and the same? I'm not buying it.

That depends on your definition of "utopia"; the weeding out of "unwanted elements" may have been viewed at "proper" in Plato's Republic but by modern views it has a decidedly dystopia bent.

It doesn't depend on our definition, especially when it's taken out of context. That's a red herring. After all, this fictional place is only pertinent to the fictional characters who experience it in their now. If we are presented with an image of a prosperous and happy society, by that definition we can reasonably surmise that they could be living in a utopia. A utopia consists of the state of being, not of the transitional phase, or else it would be impossible for there to ever be a utopia instead of it being an improbability.

And that is how Brave New World is depicted. Again I compare Crystal Tokyo to Huxley's creation.

I must strongly disagree with that. We don't know many specifics about Crystal Tokyo, whereas details of the World State is plentiful, so making a comparison is beyond reasonable. That would be like calling a plank of wood (Crystal Tokyo) a ship (World State) because they both float in water.

Uh WHERE is this? Neither of the pages previously posted here say anything about this. If anything they suggest everything was fine and then the Doom (Death) Phantom shows up and went on a crime-killing rampage. We exiled him and just after everybody was starting to forget these Black Moon guys showed up.

You quoted from episode 83. I said that what I said was in response to what you mentioned from episode 83. I even noted that the translation that I referred to was different, particularly as it related to the banishment.

It's simple. Nearly everyone on Earth is supposed to be immortal--so why aren't these people?

And, again, no one was ever -- or supposed to be -- immortal. Long-lived or ageless an immortal does not make.

Besides which, the question is irrelevant in regard to the utopian/dystopian argument. At least, if you're trying to say that there's something significantly wrong with Crystal Tokyo as a whole because you find some of Endymion's statements questionable, I'm afraid that that's quite a reach.

[Maximara]

Maximara=Except that even the 1990s version states that the people on Nemesis originally came from Earth. SInce they come from Earth the destruction ultimately came from within!

...That's very twisted logic. So, because they or their ancestors just happened to be a part of the civilization's past, even removed from it and developing into an entity all their own their actions must reflect upon said civilization as if they were one and the same? I'm not buying it.

In the anime the Black Moon family seem to be the original people exiled from the planet. The United States still has threads of its United Kingdom past running through it and there are even elements of the even older Roman (Republic) and Greek (democracy) cultures. The United States didn't really become separate from the UK until 1812 some 29 year later..a generation later.

Maximara=That depends on your definition of "utopia"; the weeding out of "unwanted elements" may have been viewed at "proper" in Plato's Republic but by modern views it has a decidedly dystopia bent.

It doesn't depend on our definition, especially when it's taken out of context. That's a red herring. After all, this fictional place is only pertinent to the fictional characters who experience it in their now. [/quote]

Plato's Republic is a fictional place as well and it has some dystopic aspects to our modern eyes but it was written as the first utopia.

If we are presented with an image of a prosperous and happy society, by that definition we can reasonably surmise that they could be living in a utopia.

We are presented with the Renaissance as a prosperous and happy society but it wasn't a utopia by any stretch of the imagination.

utopia - An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect. (oxford online dictionary)

Again look at Huxley's Brave New World:

Is the World State prosperous? Yes

As a whole are the people of the World State happy? Yes

But Huxley's world is NOT a utopia but a dystopia. People are programmed (Cleansed) to accept their station in life and when that fails there is soma (more Cleansing).

Wells Things to Come (the movie) has a future government that is portrayed as a Utopia but as one commentator noted 'there are no non white faces to be seen'.

Maximara=And that is how Brave New World is depicted. Again I compare Crystal Tokyo to Huxley's creation.

I must strongly disagree with that. We don't know many specifics about Crystal Tokyo, whereas details of the World State is plentiful, so making a comparison is beyond reasonable. That would be like calling a plank of wood (Crystal Tokyo) a ship (World State) because they both float in water.

Go back and reread http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 it is clear that Crystal Tokyo is the World State.

Maximara=Uh WHERE is this? Neither of the pages previously posted here say anything about this. If anything they suggest everything was fine and then the Doom (Death) Phantom shows up and went on a crime-killing rampage. We exiled him and just after everybody was starting to forget these Black Moon guys showed up.

You quoted from episode 83. I said that what I said was in response to what you mentioned from episode 83. I even noted that the translation that I referred to was different, particularly as it related to the banishment.

I used the episode count at wikipedia. Everybody seems to have a different count so I'll use name of episodes so I can find the thing again: "Legend Of The Negamoon"

Maximara=It's simple. Nearly everyone on Earth is supposed to be immortal--so why aren't these people?
And, again, no one was ever -- or supposed to be -- immortal. Long-lived or ageless an immortal does not make.

There are two types of immortality - the inability to age and the inability to die.

There is one Greek myth where a goddess begged Zeus to make her mortal lover immortal but she forgot to ask that he not age. He turned into a grasshopper. A more modern version of this kind of immortality are the Struldbrugs of Gulliver's Travels.

The deities of many pantheons were immortal in that they didn't age but they could still be killed.

Vampires in their many incarnations are immortal in that they don't age but they can still be "killed".

[Crescent Pulsar S]

I keep forgetting to address the matter of deconstructing Crystal Tokyo. Well, better late than never, I suppose...

I think it's due to a number of things. To begin with, it's easier to destroy something than to create, and the creation of Crystal Tokyo itself is full of so many unknowns that the lack of potential contradictions makes it even easier to do than normal. That makes it a prime target for the ubiquitous "what if" approach, and people tend to be more interested if there's conflict and/or change instead of everything being peachy and/or unchanging. After all, if they wanted more of the same, they could just watch or read the source that inspired the fan-fiction. Some probably think that Crystal Tokyo is too good to be true, so there are bound to be those who think that it would only make sense to illustrate that Crystal Tokyo isn't all what it seems underneath the surface. Well, unless they just outright AU Crystal Tokyo into something non-canonical, and that could be done for reasons well beyond what I've already mentioned.

In the anime the Black Moon family seem to be the original people exiled from the planet. The United States still has threads of its United Kingdom past running through it and there are even elements of the even older Roman (Republic) and Greek (democracy) cultures. The United States didn't really become separate from the UK until 1812 some 29 year later..a generation later.

You're not making any sense. The Dark Moon was separate by the time they attacked. They were no longer within Crystal Tokyo or any of its territories. It's obvious that they did not like the nature of Crystal Tokyo to begin with, so what sense does it make to make out a minority of people into a notable facet of a society that they wish to destroy (and actually tried to make said destruction a reality) when they are nearly as divorced from the place and people that they left as possible? That's like one side of a divorced couple being able to shift debt to the other despite their financial obligations being independent of each other.

Plato's Republic is a fictional place as well and it has some dystopic aspects to our modern eyes but it was written as the first utopia.

Again, "our modern eyes" is a red herring. We can argue until the end of time whose opinion-based perspective makes something a utopia or dystopia. The fact of the matter is that you have yet to present any clear indication of why Crystal Tokyo is a dystopia, or -- otherwise -- why it isn't a utopia. Like I've already said, Crystal Tokyo hasn't always been in a state to be a utopia all of the time. We just don't know many details, be they good or bad. However, aside from being attacked by aliens and those banished from Crystal Tokyo (thus removing the one non-utopian-like thing that we knew about in Crystal Tokyo), both of which not necessarily being the fault of Crystal Tokyo's environment, we only hear and see good things about the place.

We are presented with the Renaissance as a prosperous and happy society but it wasn't a utopia by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes, because we have a lot of history to fall back on. We can know better about the renaissance. Are you trying to imply that you can relate Crystal Tokyo's history in such abundant detail? If not, you're making another ill-chosen comparison.

utopia - An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect. (oxford online dictionary)

That's one definition, yes. Let's not forget that it's not just imaginary/fictional. Just because it hasn't arisen anywhere and anywhen yet, either as far as we know or to an insider's or outsider's perspective, that doesn't mean that it can't happen or never will.

Again look at Huxley's Brave New World:

Is the World State prosperous? Yes

As a whole are the people of the World State happy? Yes

But Huxley's world is NOT a utopia but a dystopia. People are programmed (Cleansed) to accept their station in life and when that fails there is soma (more Cleansing).

Wells Things to Come (the movie) has a future government that is portrayed as a Utopia but as one commentator noted 'there are no non white faces to be seen'.

Well, then. Where does it say that being cleansed is being programmed? I'm not familiar with this "soma," but I'm pretty sure that more cleansing after the failure to cleanse is factually incorrect. There are at least two examples of people given the choice to be cleansed (the aliens and the rebels who would become the Dark Moon), and that's not even after a failure of being cleansed. Another example of cleansing (the Ayakashi sisters) was asked of Sailor Moon; she didn't force it on them.

Also, are you implying that Crystal Tokyo is racist or genocidal? Seriously: before making comparisons, you'd best have something to compare, other than just saying that this one thing is a dystopia because of this and that's why Crystal Tokyo is, as if it's guilty through an association that hasn't even been proven. It's simply crazy talk.

Go back and reread http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7088&start=60 it is clear that Crystal Tokyo is the World State.

Um... No, it isn't. Not by a long shot. To make that kind of claim begs the question: are you trolling me? Your arguments stray ever further from relevance and manage to become even more ridiculous. However, I'll humor this line of logic. After all, there's a link to the source of your evidence right there. Surely you won't have any problem pointing out every part of it that can be compared to the World State. Especially to a degree worthy of comparison as a whole, as you're making it out to be, because some single or small aspect isn't going to cut it.

There are two types of immortality - the inability to age and the inability to die.

Incorrect. Only when one is not subject to a form of death is one immortal; it's only coincidental if they also don't happen to age, or change in a way that would suggest it. If you don't age, thus meaning you won't die from aging, then you're simply ageless unless there's another factor to take into account.

There is one Greek myth where a goddess begged Zeus to make her mortal lover immortal but she forgot to ask that he not age. He turned into a grasshopper. A more modern version of this kind of immortality are the Struldbrugs of Gulliver's Travels.

The deities of many pantheons were immortal in that they didn't age but they could still be killed.

Vampires in their many incarnations are immortal in that they don't age but they can still be "killed".

That first example isn't even relevant. How does a mortal getting turned into an immortal grasshopper, because of an oversight, illustrate your point that an immortal either doesn't die or age?

What deities from what pantheons? And are you sure that you're not just assuming that they were considered immortal? Or that they didn't have their own, special exceptions? A more proper example in Greek mythology, for instance, was that centaur who had been poisoned. Normally, it would have been deadly, but the centaur was immortal, so he agonized until he begged Zeus to end his life (who became the constellation Sagittarius). In fact, there are many instances in a variety of pantheons where one does not truly die, but lives on as something else.

As for vampires: if they can be killed, they're not immortal. Sustaining their lives is not that different from how mortals do it, since they either require sustenance and/or need to avoid sustaining a particular or great injury. They are -- effectively -- conditionally ageless.

[Maximara]

Maximara=There are two types of immortality - the inability to age and the inability to die.

Incorrect. Only when one is not subject to a form of death is one immortal;

BZZZ WRONG. There are many example where this is NOT true.

Immortality: The ability to live forever; eternal life:
eating the fruit gave the gods immortality (Oxford online dictionary)

The example Oxford gives is straight from Norse Mythology. Please note that despite eating this fruit Balder was killed by a piece of mistletoe. Also note that despite eating this fruit the gods will all die in Ragnarök.

Maximara=The deities of many pantheons were immortal in that they didn't age but they could still be killed.

What deities from what pantheons?

Osiris from Egyptian pantheon first comes to mind. In some versions this poor sod dies twice. First time Set suffocates him and his wife Isis brings him back and enraged Set kills Osiris again this time chopping him up and throwing the remains in the Nile. Isis gets nearly all the pieces (a crocodile eat the family jewels so Iris made replacements) and to celebrate she and Osiris make love. Either her magic is temporary or doing this so so after being dead is too much and Osiris dies again. He then becomes the king of the underworld.

When Zeus killed his son Asclepius Apollo slaughtered the cyclopes who made Zeus' thunderbolts and as punishment Zeus made Apollo mortal for a time. Then you have the merged Titan Olympian Helios-Apollo who in the version borrowed from Ra is born as the rising sun and dies as the setting sun.

The Norse pantheon has been mentioned.

According to Egyptian legend, the immortal phoenix died every 500 years on a funeral pyre made from its own flame but was then miraculously reborn out of its own ashes. Sa furan from Ranma 1/2 who is described as immortal is reborn this way when Ranma kills him

As for vampires: if they can be killed, they're not immortal.

The Highlanders can be killed but they are still called immortals.

The Sanjiyan Unkara of 3x3 Eyes in both the manga and anime are said to be immortal ("Sanjiyan Unkara beautiful in appearance an immortal three eye creature") but also able to die ("He whose life has been devoured shawl become one of the undead and his body shall never perish. His soul shall not be released until the Sanjiyan dies") - 3x3 Eyes Vol 1 Black Horse ISBN 1-56971-930-6

James Gunn in his The End of the Dreams has the short story "The Immortal" where at the end of the story the immortal is strangled to death

If you have watched the Hammer pictures Dracula (1958), Dracula: Prince of Darkness (1966), Dracula Has Risen from the Grave (1968), and Taste the Blood of Dracula (May 7, 1970) you have this thing where Dracula is killed at the end of each picture only to brought back at the beginning of the next.

AD&D 1 liches (which WIseman effectively is) can have their body killed but since their soul is elsewhere they can just get another body and pick up where they left off.

In the OVA Master of Mosquiton a running gag is that the immortal Alucard Von Mosquiton is staked and his two elemental servants go 'Master's dead, again' and then his master (Inaho) brings him back with a drop of blood. About midpoint in the series Mosquiton's master Inaho and his vampire wife Camille have a verbal catfight about immortality with Inaho dismissing vampire immortality in favor of the form the O-Part will give her.

Demona and Macbeth in Gargoyles are immoral but are killed several times in the series.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

We are presented with the Renaissance as a prosperous and happy society but it wasn't a utopia by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll go for "prosperous", but I'm suspicious of "happy". A society with Borgias on top, in which Machiavelli wrote The Prince and Leonardo advertised himself as a maker supreme of war machines, still has a way to go for happy.

[Maximara]

"Maximara=We are presented with the Renaissance as a prosperous and happy society but it wasn't a utopia by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll go for "prosperous", but I'm suspicious of "happy". A society with Borgias on top, in which Machiavelli wrote The Prince and Leonardo advertised himself as a maker supreme of war machines, still has a way to go for happy.[/quote]

It was happy for the ruling class. n the fanfic Red Moon this observation was made by Usagi:

"But... But the Moon Kingdom was a paradise!" To Luna, Usagi's words were almost sacrilegious.

"I'm sure it was, for the people on top. And what were you, Luna? Queen's advisor, or something like that? It must have been a pretty comfy position, or else they would not have trusted you enough to try and secure their future through your unswerving loyalty, no doubt brought on by years of indoctrination and subtle brainwashing."