Which fics have "vanished"?

[mondu_the_fat]

Who said ANYTHING about stealing? Having it offered at a website isn't stealing

Sharing something that isn't yours to share sounds like stealing to me.

especially when there's nothing specific in the fic against such a practice.

All written work is automatically copyrighted.
Just because it doesn't say "don't steal this!" doesn't mean you can.

I really don't quite understand why people are such against it. This isn't piracy here, it's about keeping things from oblivion. Why is it ok for the wayback machine, not to mention Google, to do it? There's precident here.
-Joshua

Its not ok for wayback machine. Inclusion to wayback machine is voluntary and the archiving they do is via bot (which can't ask for permission, being just a program). But the bots automatically exclude sites that want to be excluded, and they automatically remove anything if anyone complains, automatically and retroactively (again, via bot).
Waybackmachine also has lawyers on call in case of copyright dispute.
Google doesn't host what they don't host (obviously). Hosting sites also reserve the right to host (obviously) when you sign up, and this includes being included in search engines. From whom are you going to ask the rights from? Some guy who currently has a copy of the work? Does he own it?

And not only do I consider that rude, but unreasonable considering that, failing all else, I can request and receive practically any fic from somebody's personal archive if I ask enough places.

And this is wrong in itself on the part of the person giving it to you.

Why would there be a problem with hosting fanfiction as long as you attribute the work to the correct author? 0_o
Especially if it's to keep great fanfiction from fading away forever.

Because it isn't theirs to host.
When Taruru (one of the better 3d modellers) died, it was a great blow to the community. It meant that his models could no longer be shared or hosted anywhere (seeing no one could get permission from him anymore). It would be violating copyright if his models where shared underground/via PM/e-mail, even if while he was alive he freely shared the things he made. They are now good as lost, despite sitting in the hard drives of a good number of people.
If you can't see that hosting fics that you haven't/can't get permission to is wrong, then maybe you should think again. Some won't mind, heck, some might even be flattered. But if you genuinely can't gain permission it is wrong, even if lawyers wouldn't be knocking on your door anytime soon.
If it means fading of good writing (anything, actually), so be it.

[ssokolow]

Who said ANYTHING about stealing? Having it offered at a website isn't stealing

Sharing something that isn't yours to share sounds like stealing to me.

Copyright infringement and stealing are two very different things. Please don't parrot the RIAA's inaccurate and inflammatory vocabulary.

I really don't quite understand why people are such against it. This isn't piracy here, it's about keeping things from oblivion. Why is it ok for the wayback machine, not to mention Google, to do it? There's precident here.
-Joshua

Its not ok for wayback machine. Inclusion to wayback machine is voluntary and the archiving they do is via bot (which can't ask for permission, being just a program). But the bots automatically exclude sites that want to be excluded, and they automatically remove anything if anyone complains, automatically and retroactively (again, via bot).
Waybackmachine also has lawyers on call in case of copyright dispute.
Google doesn't host what they don't host (obviously). Hosting sites also reserve the right to host (obviously) when you sign up, and this includes being included in search engines. From whom are you going to ask the rights from? Some guy who currently has a copy of the work? Does he own it?

First, I get most of my content from the Wayback Machine.
Second, I obey robots.txt the same way the Wayback Machine and Google Cache do.
Third, Google caches a copy of nearly every HTML file they index. That's what those "Cached" links on the search results are.

And not only do I consider that rude, but unreasonable considering that, failing all else, I can request and receive practically any fic from somebody's personal archive if I ask enough places.

And this is wrong in itself on the part of the person giving it to you.

Please don't confuse wrong with illegal. Wrong is a moral judgement and therefore subjective.
Would you have it made illegal to re-tell a funny joke you heard from a friend without getting their permission?
No? How about if you have a photographic memory and copy down a fanfic you read which has dropped off the web?
Where should we draw the line?

Why would there be a problem with hosting fanfiction as long as you attribute the work to the correct author? 0_o
Especially if it's to keep great fanfiction from fading away forever.

Because it isn't theirs to host.
When Taruru (one of the better 3d modellers) died, it was a great blow to the community. It meant that his models could no longer be shared or hosted anywhere (seeing no one could get permission from him anymore). It would be violating copyright if his models where shared underground/via PM/e-mail, even if while he was alive he freely shared the things he made. They are now good as lost, despite sitting in the hard drives of a good number of people.

There's a big difference between archiving peoples' works and using them to create derivative works.

If you can't see that hosting fics that you haven't/can't get permission to is wrong, then maybe you should think again. Some won't mind, heck, some might even be flattered. But if you genuinely can't gain permission it is wrong, even if lawyers wouldn't be knocking on your door anytime soon.
If it means fading of good writing (anything, actually), so be it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Are you aware that the RIAA and MPAA tried (and failed) to crush every major innovation in or near their markets from the player piano, to the phonograph, to the VCR? (The DVD player was exempt because they believed that CSS content controls would provide an effective method of regional price-fixing. CSS does nothing to protect against making a perfect duplicate of a disc)
Yes? Were you also aware that, if it weren't for the telecom companies lobbying against them in the mid 1990s, they'd probably have managed to get laws passed which would make Google, Blogger, GeoCities, and the like too legally risky to have ever left the drawing board?
I didn't think so.
Copyright was established to promote scientific and artistic progress by allowing content creators to benefit from a limited-time monopoly on the sale of their works. (In the United States, originally 19 years with another 19 if the author was still alive and applied for it)
In other words, it was intended to sacrifice a bit in order to enrich the public domain in the long run. Allowing works to fade runs counter to the spirit of the law, regardless of what the letter of the law says.

[Sunshine Temple]

ssokolow, as I said in my first post. It is the policy of this side to get the writer's permision.
It is less a legal issue than one of respect.
If your little project does not get the writer's permision to host a fic, Fukufics will NOT help you and will not let you troll for fics here.
I won't let my site support such an unrespectful practice.
So to make sure we're clear. If you're not going to get the permision to host, I will lock this thread and prohibt you from pedaling your site on this forum.

[mondu_the_fat]

Copyright infringement and stealing are two very different things. Please don't parrot the RIAA's inaccurate and inflammatory vocabulary.

Oh, should I parrot you then?

First, I get most of my content from the Wayback Machine.

And you're not allowed to do that. Read their terms of service.

Some of the content available through the Archive may be governed by local, national, and/or international laws and regulations, and your use of such content is solely at your own risk. You agree to abide by all applicable laws and regulations, including intellectual property laws, in connection with your use of the Archive.

Second, I obey robots.txt the same way the Wayback Machine and Google Cache do.

No, you aren't. You're taking a copy from Waybackmachine.
If you're telling me that you created a bot that searches the web for fics outside waybackmachine and search engines, then you wouldn't need trolling here, would you?

Third, Google caches a copy of nearly every HTML file they index. That's what those "Cached" links on the search results are.

You obviously did not read my post.
Google is allowed to do that... because this is part of the agreement when you apply for hosting at a site. When you apply for hosting anywhere, sometimes part of their agreement is to be allowed to host it. Often, this includes search engines.
Google can do that because they obtained permission. You haven't.
You will not see my work in google, for example, outside of the websites I specifically allowed to do so. Google can't do that.

Please don't confuse wrong with illegal. Wrong is a moral judgement and therefore subjective.

This is both wrong and illegal. Even without copyright, sharing what you do not own is theft.

Would you have it made illegal to re-tell a funny joke you heard from a friend without getting their permission?

Jokes (ideas) cannot be copyrighted, and thus it isn't illegal to re-tell.

No? How about if you have a photographic memory and copy down a fanfic you read which has dropped off the web?

Memory is not written down, hence isn't copyrighted.
If you write it down, its obviously a violation. You're copying it, after all.

Where should we draw the line?

The line is where you don't ask permission from the people you wrote such works.

There's a big difference between archiving peoples' works and using them to create derivative works.

Yes. We can't archive them, either. Despite the fact that the guy is dead and there is no way the law will pursue us if we start giving his stuff away, we don't do it. We can't share. Period.
Because its wrong.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Are you aware that the RIAA and MPAA tried (and failed) to crush every major innovation in or near their markets from the player piano, to the phonograph, to the VCR? (The DVD player was exempt because they believed that CSS content controls would provide an effective method of regional price-fixing. CSS does nothing to protect against making a perfect duplicate of a disc)
Yes? Were you also aware that, if it weren't for the telecom companies lobbying against them in the mid 1990s, they'd probably have managed to get laws passed which would make Google, Blogger, GeoCities, and the like too legally risky to have ever left the drawing board?
I didn't think so.

Irrelevant.
As I said, you won't have lawyers beating down your door.
However, what you are doing is wrong. Morally wrong. I hardly care about the actual laws. But if I see any of my work in any place I did not put it, it is a gross disrepect to me.
Apparently, you can't see that.

[ssokolow]

ssokolow, as I said in my first post. It is the policy of this side to get the writer's permision.
It is less a legal issue than one of respect.
If your little project does not get the writer's permision to host a fic, Fukufics will NOT help you and will not let you troll for fics here.
I won't let my site support such an unrespectful practice.
So to make sure we're clear. If you're not going to get the permision to host, I will lock this thread and prohibt you from pedaling your site on this forum.

Fair enough. I do archive things if I can't get in contact with the author, so I suppose you'll want to lock this thread.
Thanks for the explanation. I'd forgotten about your post.