The Emperor's Circus [Star Wars AU Fanfiction]

[Pale Wolf]

After Admiral Ozzel screws up, Darth Vader sends General Veers and his troops down on a surface attack... you know, the attack that succeeded without once so much as slowing down, (deliberately) sacrificing greater casualties for taking down the Rebel shield and capturing the base in the absolute minimum time possible.

Ahhhhh, heheheh.

All this despite a complete clusterfuck on the Navy side of things (presumably still under Admiral Ozzel); no close air support by TIE fighters or bombers (bombers... did I mention bombers? to knock out the shields faster?)

To be fair, I generally presume the lack of close air support (as well as the lack of 'just have the shuttles drop your troops right on the base') was because the theatre shield prevented it, and for whatever reason of physics, only ground vehicles can pass under it (maybe it screws with repulsorlifts if you're passing through it at low speed - and of course it screws with structural integrity when you're passing through it at high speed )

no TIE fighters launched to fly combat space patrol and actually take down the bloody Rebel transports

Yes... that would be a bit of a 'doh' moment, wouldn't it?

Did I mention no TIE cover?

Hard to be sure, but you may have touched on it.

As far as Luke and the academy, following and taking orders is a necessary _precursor_. The Imperial forces are absolutely overwhelming, as long as their men have the skill to act in a coordinated manner, which takes a lot of training as well as a lot of practice and time. Further, developing the espirit de corps required also takes time. Serious nation-states who aren't feeling seriously pressured do not cut short military training time, whether the person needs every class or no; they need to take that class with their classmates, helping their classmates when they can and being helped when they need it in turn.

Yeah, Luke isn't going to have a shortened training time - all I meant was that he wouldn't be likely to wash out

Ahhhh, I see, I misread ya. I thought you meant he'd wash out, not that he'd not graduate early. My bad. ^^;

And yes, the Empire... bluntly, the system has so much inertia that even if he were fully qualified to have a shortened training time, and it wasn't a bad idea anyway, they'd still probably keep him in all the way.

Training time I eventually set at somewhat over one year - the information available on it varied heavily, but most seemed to agree on around a year.

Regarding Leia vs. Luke, Luke's just never been an interesting character to me. Leia is; royalty giving up their comforts is one thing. Farmers fighting is a much more common thing.

That's fair enough.

.S. I blame you for my exposure to this Star Wars related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ijDlbvAxw

Lulz.

Ahh... and in the Empire Strikes Back part 3, at about 3:14, we also see the #1 indication of the true range of force choke, when Darth Vader force choked Admiral Ozzel without being anywhere near him.

Beware the Holonet, beware video conferencing, for Darth Vader can absolutely kill you through it. Whether he can kill you without seeing some image of you is unknown, one way or the other.

Indeed. Less uber force-users than Vader and Palpatine may not have that range, but Vader has, at least, a range of a few kilometers (since Ozzel was on the same ship).

[Nadrek]

To be fair, I generally presume the lack of close air support (as well as the lack of 'just have the shuttles drop your troops right on the base') was because the theatre shield prevented it, and for whatever reason of physics, only ground vehicles can pass under it (maybe it screws with repulsorlifts if you're passing through it at low speed - and of course it screws with structural integrity when you're passing through it at high speed )

Indeed. Less uber force-users than Vader and Palpatine may not have that range, but Vader has, at least, a range of a few kilometers (since Ozzel was on the same ship).

An interesting argument, and not illogical, but to which the blatantly obvious answer is park the #$%#%(* TIE on a sled/shuttle door or wall from Maintenance, and drag it through the shield with an AT-AT. Optionally, just drag your shuttles through!


Less powerful force users may well have a smaller range than Darth Vader. OTOH, I picture Vader's hunt for lesser force users and non-force using enemies who have a death mark to go something like this:
Darth Vader, relaxing in his closed spherical chamber, with the displays of hundreds of Stormtrooper and other (flying) remote cameras around him.

The target, wherever they are, being spotted by a trooper and/or a remote camera and/or a less visible spy with a camera.

Darth Vader, noticing them by the Force... or by a mundane report by the spy/trooper/droid.

The target, clawing at its throat as it dies.

Darth Vader, sighing, and turning back to mountains of paperwork.

Troopers shooting the body a few more times and carrying it off.

[CRBWildcat]

Picked up a few details on the Battle of Hoth via Wookieepedia. I highly doubt that once the walkers and the other stuff they needed was crammed onto the dropships and assault craft, there was any room for fighters or what have you.

[Pale Wolf]

An interesting argument, and not illogical, but to which the blatantly obvious answer is park the #$%#%(* TIE on a sled/shuttle door or wall from Maintenance, and drag it through the shield with an AT-AT. Optionally, just drag your shuttles through!

Yup, there are definite potential ways to get around it.

Less powerful force users may well have a smaller range than Darth Vader. OTOH, I picture Vader's hunt for lesser force users and non-force using enemies who have a death mark to go something like this:
Darth Vader, relaxing in his closed spherical chamber, with the displays of hundreds of Stormtrooper and other (flying) remote cameras around him.

The target, wherever they are, being spotted by a trooper and/or a remote camera and/or a less visible spy with a camera.

Darth Vader, noticing them by the Force... or by a mundane report by the spy/trooper/droid.

The target, clawing at its throat as it dies.

Darth Vader, sighing, and turning back to mountains of paperwork.

Troopers shooting the body a few more times and carrying it off.

*Snickers*

Picked up a few details on the Battle of Hoth via Wookieepedia. I highly doubt that once the walkers and the other stuff they needed was crammed onto the dropships and assault craft, there was any room for fighters or what have you.

While that's true, you don't actually have to take the fighters down, just the sleds - the fighters can take themselves down without too much trouble

[Mitchell]

I think you can call the Battle of Hoth the battle of Plot Armour.

[Nadrek]

I think you can call the Battle of Hoth the battle of Plot Armour.

Not necessarily; we can also use it to show that the Imperial forces have a vast gulf between the highly competent and the highly incompetent. This make sense in a system where political patronage and corruption is common.

Pale Wolf, I am greatly refreshed that you did see the fact that TIEs can fly on their own.

[lwf58]

no TIE fighters launched to fly combat space patrol and actually take down the bloody Rebel transports

To be fair, that's not such a blunder as you would think. First off, while transports are not warships, that doesn't mean they are unarmed. Just because they lack the firepower to take on a Star Destroyer doesn't mean they can't swat an unarmored single-seat fighter that annoys them.

Now, as for the lack of fighter cover... Being locked up in a cramped cockpit is tiring. Even today, fighters are not launched until they have a mission. The only exception is that a CAP (combat air patrol) is always kept in the air just in case. CAPs are made up of a few aircraft that stay in the air for a set period, after which they are replaced so they can land and rest.

Now, let's look at the situation in ESB: The Empire has a blockade set up using the equivalent of cruiser class warships. The rebels have no warships at all, just lightly armed transport ships that are trapped on the ground - and since they are concealed underground, there is some doubt that the Imperial forces knew about them. They also don't know about the ion cannon since their probe didn't see it. The probe only saw the shield generators.

That means that it's unlikely that the Star Destroyers have anything other than a CAP outside because they are not expecting space combat. If it does come, they would believe that it would begin with ships coming from out-system, which they would detect and have time to prepare for. The most they'd expect from the surface is a fighter contingent, which their ships can easily face while launching a counter-force of TIE fighters.

Under those conditions, it makes sense not to have a large group of fighters out in space, becoming fatigued when there's no sign of a foe for them. It's better to hold off and send them into combat fresh and rested when they are needed.

The rebels, of course, had an answer to that. Their ion cannon knocked a gap in the blockade just long enough to allow their small number of transports to slip through. The CAP that may have been left behind would have no chance to stop large ships that were under maximum acceleration to warp, and trying would have only caused minor damage and possibly gotten them destroyed. We know from Episode 4 that even a small vessel like the Millennium Falcon had shields that TIE fighter weaponry had a very tough time penetrating. TIEs were designed to take on other fighters, not ships.

I have no doubt that the other Star Destroyers would have launched TIE strikes to head for the gap to do what they could, and it's also likely that reserve warships would have also begun moving to close it. But by the time they could react, it was too late to stop the transports.

[Nadrek]

To be fair, that's not such a blunder as you would think. First off, while transports are not warships, that doesn't mean they are unarmed. Just because they lack the firepower to take on a Star Destroyer doesn't mean they can't swat an unarmored single-seat fighter that annoys them.

Now, as for the lack of fighter cover... Being locked up in a cramped cockpit is tiring. Even today, fighters are not launched until they have a mission. The only exception is that a CAP (combat air patrol) is always kept in the air just in case. CAPs are made up of a few aircraft that stay in the air for a set period, after which they are replaced so they can land and rest.

Now, let's look at the situation in ESB: The Empire has a blockade set up using the equivalent of cruiser class warships. The rebels have no warships at all, just lightly armed transport ships that are trapped on the ground - and since they are concealed underground, there is some doubt that the Imperial forces knew about them. They also don't know about the ion cannon since their probe didn't see it. The probe only saw the shield generators.

That means that it's unlikely that the Star Destroyers have anything other than a CAP outside because they are not expecting space combat. If it does come, they would believe that it would begin with ships coming from out-system, which they would detect and have time to prepare for. The most they'd expect from the surface is a fighter contingent, which their ships can easily face while launching a counter-force of TIE fighters.

[some clipped]
We know from Episode 4 that even a small vessel like the Millennium Falcon had shields that TIE fighter weaponry had a very tough time penetrating. TIEs were designed to take on other fighters, not ships.

1) Swatting one fighter is not the same as swatting a major portion of a Star Destroyer's complement, and fighters can and do attack ships, regardless of whether they're going to take losses.

2) So, assaulting a Rebel base isn't a mission? And even given that the officers involved agreed with you that it wasn't, where was the CAP?

3) More precisely, let's look at the situation in ESB from a little bit further in the past. Lord Vader heard the officer's report from the probe droid, ordered the fleet to go there, and the ground forces to prepare for a surface attack. Admiral Ozzel brought the fleet out of hyperspace too close to the Rebel Base, alerting them to the presence of the Imperials. The rebels immediately started their evacuation plans. Lord Vader ordered the fleet to make sure nothing got off the planet and again ordered preparations for a surface attack. Then we see fighting. There was, by all accounts, very little time passing; certainly not more than hours, and probably less, and we see no further evidence of information gathering by the Imperials. What part of "let nothing get off that planet" means "relax, a probe droid that didn't keep transmitting very long saw a power generator but didn't see Rebels with lots of gear, therefore, Rebels cannot have lots of gear, so don't bother doing things thoroughly"?
I would have to say that assaulting an unknown base is a "mission" and should require all your assets to be deployed optimally.

4) Again, why would they assume that the Rebels cannot have anything they haven't seen (i.e. a power generator, and what, tents, then, perhaps?). When you assault a planet, you should also expect space combat. Further, ships from outsystem could come out of hyperspace on top of the fleet, feeling like Admiral Ozzel did that surprise was preferable. There would be no time real to prepare, though detection would be pretty easy.

5) We also know that even Han thought that was too easy an escape, and that the Empire did, in fact, deliberately let the Falcon go with a tracking device (or eight) aboard.

[lwf58]

1) Swatting one fighter is not the same as swatting a major portion of a Star Destroyer's complement, and fighters can and do attack ships, regardless of whether they're going to take losses.

Yep. But my point is that a CAP, which is out to act as a first line of defense against incoming enemy fighters, consists of a few craft. Not enough to have a chance of doing much more than minor damage before being destroyed or, more likely, the ships they are assaulting escape into hyperspace.

2) So, assaulting a Rebel base isn't a mission? And even given that the officers involved agreed with you that it wasn't, where was the CAP?

That was addressed earlier. It's likely that the shield kept TIE bombers from being able to do their job, and TIEs are never seen operating in atmosphere. So what are they supposed to do if you launch them?

When the shield generator was destroyed, it was only minutes later that storm troopers were mixed in with the rebels, so bombing after that would have been counterproductive.

3) More precisely, let's look at the situation in ESB from a little bit further in the past. Lord Vader heard the officer's report from the probe droid, ordered the fleet to go there, and the ground forces to prepare for a surface attack. Admiral Ozzel brought the fleet out of hyperspace too close to the Rebel Base, alerting them to the presence of the Imperials. The rebels immediately started their evacuation plans. Lord Vader ordered the fleet to make sure nothing got off the planet and again ordered preparations for a surface attack. Then we see fighting. There was, by all accounts, very little time passing; certainly not more than hours, and probably less, and we see no further evidence of information gathering by the Imperials. What part of "let nothing get off that planet" means "relax, a probe droid that didn't keep transmitting very long saw a power generator but didn't see Rebels with lots of gear, therefore, Rebels cannot have lots of gear, so don't bother doing things thoroughly"?
I would have to say that assaulting an unknown base is a "mission" and should require all your assets to be deployed optimally.

Yep. And that's what they did. TIEs were useless, so they weren't deployed.

4) Again, why would they assume that the Rebels cannot have anything they haven't seen (i.e. a power generator, and what, tents, then, perhaps?). When you assault a planet, you should also expect space combat. Further, ships from outsystem could come out of hyperspace on top of the fleet, feeling like Admiral Ozzel did that surprise was preferable. There would be no time real to prepare, though detection would be pretty easy.

Beg pardon? When assaulting a planet, you should expect space combat? Sorry, I can't follow your logic.

The Imperial forces set up a blockade around the planet. If a fighter assault appeared, they could have responded with a TIE launch. No fighter assaults appeared. Nor did a rebel fleet. So for what reason should they have expected space combat?

As for the ion cannon... When our soldiers take on an encampment of Islamic extremists in Iraq or Afghanistan, they don't expect them to have batteries of 150mm artillery with them. By what you said, should they? The circumstances are similar in kind.

That the base was more extensive than they were expecting would be easy to understand, and that they had even one piece of heavy artillery set up in a base that had existed for a short time is amazing, and was a testament to the resourcefulness of the rebels, not an indictment of the Imperial's planning skills. That cannon was one of the few things about the base other than the bay doors or shield generator that wasn't slapdash. Heaven knows their ground defense preparations were pitiful.

5) We also know that even Han thought that was too easy an escape, and that the Empire did, in fact, deliberately let the Falcon go with a tracking device (or eight) aboard.

What Han was commenting on was that the Empire only sent four fighters after them, and those four were not reinforced. They were escaping from the biggest spacecraft carrier in the known universe; they could have been swamped in fighters.

My point is that the four TIEs that did attack them were completely unable to penetrate the shields on what is a very small ship, however customized it might be. That leads me to believe that a larger ship such as the rebel transports used in ESB, which would have heavier shields, would be an even tougher target for TIEs to seriously damage. Not impossible; shields can eventually be overloaded. But tough enough that a small group of TIEs would have practically no chance of crippling one in the short time between the ships entry into space and jumping into hyperspace. Assuming that the Star Destroyer had a CAP out (not a given - Star Wars battle tactics are generally idiotic in all of the movies), they would have had no reinforcements because their mother ship was knocked out by the ion cannon before any of them had a clue they were under attack.