ranma's pet

[toushin]

is ranma really to blame for p-chan, i recently re-read chapter 16 and it apears that ryoga had already jumped off the cliff twhen he dodged genma ranma had merely steped on him propeling him down quicker then would have fallen on his own. is ranma to blame or is this just another excuse for ryoga to hate someone whom up to that point really hadn't done anything to him

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

I can't speak for how it happens in the manga, the earliest volume I've seen ends with the chapter in which Akane's hair is cut but she gets over it, but this is how it happened in the anime:

Genma comes barrelling out of the undergrowth at Ryoga.

Ryoga shouts in panic and leaps straight up to evade Genma.

Ranma comes leaping after Genma, shouting "wait up ya old fool", spring to a level equal with the descending Ryoga.

We don't see anything more of the moment of impact beyound an "impact flash", so it's impossible to ascertain whether Ranma kneed Ryoga in the face or springboarded off of his head.

Ryoga falls back on to the cliff-face he had leapt from, landing on his hands and knees, with one hand close to the edge.

The edge under his hand crumbles, tilting him off balance and causing him to fall over the edge into the Spring of Drowned Pig.

There's no indication whether the fall was caused by Ryoga landing badly, the weakness of the rock, or even the strength with which Ranma propelled him downwards. Ranma did knock Ryoga out of the sky, and Ryoga jumped into the sky to evade Genma in the first place.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

To me it looked like Ryoga jumped up into the air (not down the cliff) and he would have landed back on safe ground, if Ranma hadn't interfered.

They collided in mid-air, Ryoga landed on the edge of the cliff, the cliff crumbled and then he fell down into the spring. Note the rocks that were falling down, too. If he had already fallen down, there would be no rocks. And Ranma wouldn't have collided with Ryoga, since he was on top of the cliff following Genma. If Ryoga were already falling down, Ranma wouldn't even have seen him.

Yes, I think Ryoga can blame Ranma for his curse. It was an accident, but it was caused by Ranma.

[Dumbledork]

To me it looked like Ryoga jumped up into the air (not down the cliff) and he would have landed back on safe ground, if Ranma hadn't interfered.

They collided in mid-air, Ryoga landed on the edge of the cliff, the cliff crumbled and then he fell down into the spring. Note the rocks that were falling down, too. If he had already fallen down, there would be no rocks. And Ranma wouldn't have collided with Ryoga, since he was on top of the cliff following Genma. If Ryoga were already falling down, Ranma wouldn't even have seen him.

Yes, I think Ryoga can blame Ranma for his curse. It was an accident, but it was caused by Ranma.

I agree

[Crescent Pulsar R]

I don't. It's too incidental to cast blame on anyone. However, if you need to cast blame, then you'd have to go back further than that, in order to understand how those circumstances were set up. In which case, Ryoga would be to blame for following Ranma to China, because of a misunderstanding that was all his own doing. Why? Because we know that Ranma waited; and not for just a few hours, as you'd expect from a normal person. No, he waited in consideration for someone like Ryoga. For days. Thus we can't blame Ranma, because he tried to accommodate Ryoga. Ryoga got it into his head that Ranma had wronged him, which led him to being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Which is an incidental situation, and can't be blamed on anyone, but you can suitably blame the reason(s) that got them there.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

No, you'd have to go even further back than that. Ranma jumped on Ryoga's head to get the last bread, which led to their rivalry, the missed duel, and Ryoga's presence on the cliff.

It's unimportant why Ryoga was there. Ranma pushed him and Ranma is to blame for his actions and its consequences.

[Konsaki]

No, no, no... It's all Takahashi's fault!

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Blasphemy!

No, you'd have to go even further back than that. Ranma jumped on Ryoga's head to get the last bread, which led to their rivalry, the missed duel, and Ryoga's presence on the cliff.

It's unimportant why Ryoga was there. Ranma pushed him and Ranma is to blame for his actions and its consequences.

Um... Unless Ranma hit air, then, yes, it is important regarding why Ryoga was there. And, again, the circumstances were incidental, so you can't blame Ranma (or Ryoga). Unless it was a crime, which it's not, so Ranma shares no responsibility for why Ryoga happens to be in her way. Especially since she probably didn't see him before she jumped, though whether that's the case or not is unknown. And since we can't establish that much...

We go back, again. You don't have to go further back than Ryoga missing the duel, because Ranma's success in getting the last bread only leads up to the rivalry. A rivalry only existing in Ryoga's eyes (since Ranma probably didn't see it as a serious grudge). And that one-sided rivalry led up to him issuing the duel. And then it was he who missed his own duel. Followed by him blaming Ranma for that. If Ryoga wasn't, well, Ryoga, then he wouldn't have followed after Ranma, and ended up being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Thus, Ryoga is to blame, because Ranma didn't tell him to do any of those things, and willfully did them himself. As opposed to the one thing that Ranma did, which was actually bumping into Ryoga by sheer coincidence, not intention. That's many purposeful actions versus one accidental action, and the accidental action only exists because of those purposeful actions. That answers things adequately enough for me. *Shrugs*

[Kyoumen]

You're kind of ignoring the fact that Ryouga didn't purposefully miss the duel, either. It was a circumstance entirely beyond his control, unlike Ranma knocking someone off a cliff because he wasn't paying attention. Ranma himself doesn't have any problems accepting he was responsible for what happened to Ryouga.

Even aside from that, it is a somewhat difficult-to-swallow moral argument that Ranma isn't responsible for knocking someone off a cliff because that person was purposefully near the edge of a cliff.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Ryoga knows he has a bad sense of direction, even if he doesn't like to admit it, and yet his plans never take that into consideration. So it's his fault for willfully ignoring his own problem that he missed the duel.

And how was Ranma in control of that situation? That makes no sense. You just tried to argue that Ryoga missing his own duel was beyond his control, even though he's certainly not paying attention to his bad sense of direction. Just like Ranma wasn't paying attention... Yet, unlike Ryoga, he's still in control? I don't get it.

Beyond that, it's not a moral issue, the last time I checked. That's a matter of concern from the character's point of view, and we already know how Ranma feels about it (and no doubt regrets it often enough). Toushin asked us for our opinion, as far as I understand it.

And the argument isn't about Ranma knocking Ryoga over the edge, anyway. I've established it once and I'll establish it again: the incident is too circumstantial at that point and time to place the blame on either one of them. The only way that you can properly cast blame is to break it down and figure out who has the "right of way," which entails figuring out whose presence at that location was most appropriate. Ranma? Training trip. By the will of his father. Ryoga? Holds an instant grudge against Ranma, issues a duel, doesn't take his own sense of direction into account and misses said duel, blames Ranma for that, and then decides that he must follow Ranma to take care of something that's his own fault, not Ranma's. All by his own will. So, there's Ranma, dealing with his own, very real problem, and then there's Ryoga, trying to take out his own problems on Ranma, instead of carrying on with his life like normal... like Ranma is, because moving around to train is a normal part of his life.

Even if we were talking about morality? I'd say that it was served with karmic justice. Ryoga was there with ill intention, and he ended up cursed. Not only concerning the ill intention, but wanting to do it to someone who was otherwise nice to him, and went out of their way to show him home (and perhaps to school from his home).

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Uh, just to interrupt for a second, but, is this topic asking whether Ranma is responsible for giving Ryoga his curse, or is it asking if Ranma is responsible for Ryoga being adopted as "P-chan" by Akane? I thought it was the former when I posted, but now I've been wondering if maybe it's actually the latter.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

@SpaceKnight of Chaos: The OP directly asks for the former.

@Crescent Pulsar R: It's NOT important why Ryoga was there.

When there is an accident nobody cares why someone is there, be it incidentally or intentionally, they only want to know who caused the accident. And in this case it's Ranma's last accidental action that pushed Ryoga over the cliff. Therefore, he is to blame for Ryoga's curse.

[Kyoumen]

Uh... so, if a blind man walks into someone, and a man who was talking on his cel phone and not paying attention to where he's going walks into someone, who is generally considered more responsible for their action?

It's certainly true Ryouga is unreasonable by most people's lights for expecting Ranma to wait at a duel until he gets there (though, in fact, Ranma actually most likely would have done this if he hadn't had to go to China, and doesn't consider it that unreasonable elsewhere in the manga when similar things happen), but that has nothing at all to do with the fact that Ranma carelessly knocked a bystander off a cliff because he wasn't paying attention to who was around him while he chased his father around. Ryouga does not become responsible for Ranma knocking him off a cliff no matter why he happened to be standing by a cliff (nor does his chasing Ranma to have a duel with him really constitute an act worthy of retribution with a curse).

Ranma knocked a guy off a cliff because he was careless. That is not "circumstantial", and it most certainly is his fault what happened because of his carelessness... as Ranma himself has no trouble admitting. Blaming the guy who got knocked off a cliff for being there and not the guy who actually knocked him off is kind of ridiculous.

Oh, and since Ranma attacked Ryouga multiple times to get to food before him (kicking him in the face et al), it's rather dubious to say he was "otherwise nice" to Ryouga (once again, as everyone who hears the story immediately realises why Ryouga hates him, including Ranma). Much like he acts towards Ryouga pretty much for the entire manga, it's most likely Ranma was nice sometimes and a class-A jerk at other times.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Blind versus distracted, is it? I don't think so. For one, they were both blind: because they were both in the air and it was inevitable that they would collide. That Ranma saw Ryoga before she jumped into the air is unlikely, because she either jumped up from behind the bamboo, or she jumped out of it, because it was thick enough to block her view of her father, thick enough for moving through it not being preferable, or both. And then, of course... Ranma didn't knock Ryoga off of the cliff! Ranma knocked Ryoga out of the air. Ryoga just happened to be near a cliff at the time. And we have no idea, except possibly in the anime, of whether he fell from the cliff due to his own inability or not. And if it was simply bad luck, Ranma can't be held responsible for the weakness of the cliff's structure, and neither can he be held responsible for putting him near a cliff since Ryoga was already near it. In fact, in the manga, he's walking right along the cliff, so it's his fault because he had chosen to be so close to it. If he hadn't, he might not have been knocked onto a weaker portion of it, or knocked over it entirely.

That's why it's too incidental to properly cast blame on either of them considering those circumstances alone, because it's entirely out of both of their hands at that time. Case in point: out in a wilderness like that, how can Ranma even expect to run into someone, especially when they happen to be up in the air, too? And while he just happens to be in a blind rage? That's just how unlikely the circumstances are, that they both would be in an area that has very few people around, and they both just happen to commit to actions that they can't change the course of when they bump into each other.

So, back to the past once more. But only to correct you, this time, because you've got it all wrong. For one, the boys competing for the last bread was normal. It was always a free-for-all, which Ranma had referred to as a "war." Ranma used Ryoga's head as a springboard to get to the first bread and, rather than accept his defeat gracefully and try for something else, like everyone else, he took it personally and made it about him. You know, because Ryoga is like that. The fighting starts because, instead of trying to overcome everyone else, he begins to attack Ranma outright, who responds in kind. This is illustrated in the next example, where they had both tried to kick the other. The question is who tried to kick who first, and the likely answer is that it was Ryoga: because we know how he gets, and we know that Ranma is usually easy-going and slow to resort to violence when it comes to a lot of things. For example, when Ryoga tries a sneak attack at Furinken, when he first finds Ranma, and despite the obvious intent to harm him, he only dodges and keeps his cool. And not just with that opening strike. Then, during the duel, he's more than willing to resolve what he thinks the problem is by giving Ryoga bread that he had rightfully won before, rather than fight. Then, when it came down to fighting, Ranma was still unwilling to fight back right away. That's why it was likely that Ranma was fighting for the bread on Ryoga's terms, because he insisted that they fight for it with his own actions.

It's a mess entirely of Ryoga's own design: he made winning the last bread a personal issue, he issued the duel, he missed his own duel despite knowing his bad sense of direction and reasoned that it was somehow Ranma's fault, he decided to forget trying to continue attending school and followed Ranma, and he chose to walk next to the edge of a cliff (no doubt knowing the risk). His curse is his own fault.

@Crescent Pulsar R: It's NOT important why Ryoga was there.

When there is an accident nobody cares why someone is there, be it incidentally or intentionally, they only want to know who caused the accident. And in this case it's Ranma's last accidental action that pushed Ryoga over the cliff. Therefore, he is to blame for Ryoga's curse.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG, wrong, WRONG. When a car hits a pedestrian, it's not automatically the driver's fault just because the pedestrian usually has the right of way and the car has the ability to brake. Roads are made for cars, and there are times when a pedestrian can't just walk right out into traffic and expect not to be hit. Ranma is meant to be there, because he goes to those sorts of places to train. Ryoga only ever ends up at those places incidentally, as he otherwise tries to make it home and to school. You know, a normal life. Ryoga chose to step out onto the road, so to speak, and ended up in front of a car before it could do more than plow into him. You can't blame the driver if someone comes out of nowhere. Furthermore, investigators would certainly check to see if there was a reason for why they stepped right out in front of a car. Were they depressed beforehand, and it was an act of suicide? Did they have too much to drink, and wandered off in a stupor? Or did they want to cross the road but simply didn't look first? The path is just as important as the destination that it leads to, when it comes to solving problems. Of all kinds. To find out who caused the accident, it's often required that the circumstances leading up to it are figured out, even if the result is obvious: because things aren't always what they seem.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

When there is an accident nobody cares why someone is there, be it incidentally or intentionally, they only want to know who caused the accident.

When a car hits a pedestrian, it's not automatically the driver's fault...

That's exactly what I'm saying. Can't you read?

...the pedestrian usually has the right of way...

What kind of fucked up Highway Code have you learned?

...and there are times when a pedestrian can't just walk right out into traffic and expect not to be hit.

Like every time ever? What kind of fucked up country are you living in? Where I come from everyone on the road is supposed to look out for everyone else, including pedestrians. Pedestrians are supposed to look left and right each time they want to cross the road.

Ryoga only ever ends up at those places incidentally

In this case he followed Ranma to China. It was his intention to be there. No coincidence in sight. He made it there just hours after Ranma (whom he followed throughout China) despite his bad sense of direction.

You can't blame the driver if someone comes out of nowhere.

I can blame him when he is driving too fast in an area full of obstacles. I can blame Ranma when he is running blindly through a forested area.

Ryoga only ever ends up at those places incidentally, as he otherwise tries to make it home and to school. You know, a normal life.

In this case he walked to the place intentionally to follow Ranma and get revenge. You know like an obsessed idiot.

Ryoga chose to step out onto the road, so to speak, and ended up in front of a car before it could do more than plow into him.

The metaphorical car was driving too fast and the metaphorical driver did not pay attention to his surroundings. The metaphorical driver could have even metaporically swerved.

Furthermore, investigators would certainly check to see if there was a reason for why they stepped right out in front of a car.

In this case Ryoga jumped up to avoid a collision wth a wild animal. Not that this changes anything in the situation.

Were they depressed beforehand, and it was an act of suicide? Did they have too much to drink, and wandered off in a stupor? Or did they want to cross the road but simply didn't look first?

And in each case the driver of a car has still got to brake as hard as he can. What is your point?

The path is just as important as the destination that it leads to, when it comes to solving problems. Of all kinds.

What the fuck has this bullshit to do with anything in that situation?

Who caused the accident? Ryoga by being there or Ranma by jumping into him?

It doesn't matter why Ryoga is there. It doesn't matter that Ryoga should've never started his feud. It doesn't matter that he routinely gets lost. Nothing about their past history matters in that single moment.

Ranma pushed Ryoga and this push sent Ryoga down the cliff into the cursed spring. It is Ranma's action that cursed Ryoga. The only one responsible for Ranma's actions is Ranma. Ranma is responsible for the consequences of his actions and in this case he is responsible for Ryoga's curse.

And Ranma never denies this responsibility.