ranma's pet

[Wyrd]

Ryouga - Jumped straight up in the air to avoid a wild animal barreling towards him.

Jumped back and away from the direction he was looking when he saw a wild animal charging at him. He did not have sight of his trajectory at all, and had effectively no control of it once he was in the air.

This is not "shared fault or no fault". It is Ranma's fault. It wouldn't matter if Ryouga looked where he was going (he did; he saw both Genma and Ranma coming), because Ryouga was the one who got hit. If you throw a baseball blindly and hit someone in the back of the head, it is not "shared fault or no fault" because neither you nor the victim were looking at where the ball was going. One guy was the victim here. One guy was the one charging through the wilderness without looking or caring what they ran into in a hazardous area. They aren't the same guy, and they do not share the same amount of blame.

This is not an accurate comparison. Try instead: a pedestrian is walking down the sidewalk next to a busy street. While walking past a yard, a dog charges at him. Without thinking, he jumps away from the dog and is hit before he even hits the ground by a car doing the speed limit. Neither man nor car is legally at fault, though the man actually has a little more blame, because once he was in motion, there was no way to avoid the accident.

Also, "too late to do anything about it"? Are you serious? This is Ranma Saotome. If he'd actually been paying attention, he had hundreds of options besides "slam guy with my knee, keep going, let them plummet over cliff".

Even Ranma needs something to use for leverage to change direction while in mid air, the only exception I am aware of being while in an HSH, where he is using the high speed winds to maneuver, with great difficulty. The only thing Ranma could have done here would be to control the impact a bit more than the flashback shows, which he may have done, on an entirely instinctual basis, and which Ryouga is not giving him credit for. Given the differences in mass between Ryouga with a full backpack and Onna-Ranma, she likely had very little actual effect on his trajectory, though physics is admittedly played rather loosely in this series.

[Zwzn]

Leave the bad fanon Ranma bashing out of this thread. All Ranma's crimes are really is being a teenager who bends over backwards to help anyone. Characters from Ranma1/2 who are far worse are often given free passes.

The only thing he can't do is deal with Akane, because his feelings get in the way.

Ranma's feelings are very debatable, and have little to nothing to do with his problems with Akane. He can be polite, rude, or something someone else says or does could set Akane off(often she should know better). It does not matter how he behaves. Akane also does not like it when Ranma is polite and nice. It makes her nervous. He is damned if her does, and damned if he doesn't..

I mean, when Ranma slammed a child in the side of the head with his fist (Hiryuu Shoten Ha story) due to not paying attention where he was punching, was it equally the child's fault for not looking at Ranma when he did so? Was it Miss Hinako's fault that Ranma jumped on her head on her first day at school? After all, she wasn't looking at him! And she had bad intentions in going to the school, too! Clearly it is therefore just as much her fault that Ranma knocked her unconscious by using her head as a springboard?

The child wasn't in sight when Ranma was half way finished throwing the punch. Either that kid was fast, or Ranma was throwing a stupidly slow punch. Either way the kid had to have put himself in the way of the punch after Ranma started punching, and had plenty of time to at least try to avoid Ranma's fist.. It's the little kids fault, and possibly part of a con.


The timing of events is not clear. It is possible that Hinako was behind a brick wall, and out of sight from Ranma's angle when he jumped, and she moved into his landing zone without noticing him. Who if anyone is at fault is unclear.

Would it have been better if Ranma had just literally running Hinako over? You can't use a person's head as a spring board, and jumping would actually be a good way of slowing down fast. It's more likely Ranma skipped off the top of Hinako's head like a flat rock on a lake.

Back on topic

Even Ranma needs something to use for leverage to change direction while in mid air, the only exception I am aware of being while in an HSH, where he is using the high speed winds to maneuver, with great difficulty. The only thing Ranma could have done here would be to control the impact a bit more than the flashback shows, which he may have done, on an entirely instinctual basis, and which Ryouga is not giving him credit for. Given the differences in mass between Ryouga with a full backpack and Onna-Ranma, she likely had very little actual effect on his trajectory, though physics is admittedly played rather loosely in this series.

One thing to remember is Ryoga does not remember the event very well, and he also lied about Ranma not showing up to their duel just days before. Even if he is not lying that does not mean he is telling the truth.

For all we know Ryoga got lost on the way to the ground, and just doesn't want to admit it. The guy seems to walk to the different islands of Japan, and he seems to have possibly walked to Africa in the Mushrooms of aging arc.

[claymade]

And it does matter what is normal, because things that are out of place cause accidents. You know, like a toy left on a stair, instead of being in a toy box, or the owner's room, when it's not being used. Ryoga's room was Japan, which is where he should have stayed, but wrongful thinking and bad decisions led up to him being in a place where he normally isn't. And we, as the readers, know that Ryoga had gone there under the wrong pretenses, which is the same as a kid leaving a toy where it shouldn't be left.

Since the question is whether "it's okay to do dangerous things as long as it's in the wilderness, because no one else 'should' be there", probably the closest analogy I can think of would be to hunting accidents. If you go out deep, deep into the wilderness, and start shooting off a gun without carefully checking your fire, and by some horribly unlikely coincidence you happen to hit someone you had "no way of knowing" would be there, then guess what? It's your fault. Just switch out "shooting recklessly without paying attention to what you're shooting at" for "charging along a cliff at Ranma-class-martial-artist-velocities while paying such utterly little attention that you don't even realize it after you do hit someone."

And as for the motives of the victim mattering... they don't really. If you accidentally shoot someone in the wilderness, it doesn't matter if their reasons for standing in that spot were for the purposes of birdwatching, or the "wrong pretense" of ditching school. Flipping between one or the other doesn't magically make a difference in what you did, or make you the least bit less responsible for your lack of precaution/attentiveness.

Even Ranma needs something to use for leverage to change direction while in mid air, the only exception I am aware of being while in an HSH, where he is using the high speed winds to maneuver, with great difficulty. The only thing Ranma could have done here would be to control the impact a bit more than the flashback shows...

He'd hardly need to change his entire direction to accomplish what Kyoumen is talking about. Heck, it would have been as simple as just grabbing hold of Ryouga.

...which he may have done, on an entirely instinctual basis, and which Ryouga is not giving him credit for. Given the differences in mass between Ryouga with a full backpack and Onna-Ranma, she likely had very little actual effect on his trajectory...

Except that we can clearly see that the impact had a very large effect, making talk about "likelyhood" moot. Ryouga's upright when he jumps. Ranma hits him hard enough to knock him away headlong.

Either Ranma's forward momentum was just that great that even a glancing blow did that, or else we could say--since you're willing to ascribe "instinctual" actions to Ranma in that setting--that Ranma "instinctively" went the opposite way that you suggest, making a point of knocking Ryouga out of his way. (That kind of instinct, at least, would certainly fit far better with his so-berserk-he-doesn't-even-consciously-register-hitting-someone state than its opposite.)

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

Do you know what they are doing when they look at the place where it happened, and the skid marks? They're looking at the past. The past tells them how the scene of the accident came to be. When they see the present condition of things, they're actually time traveling (not literally, but you should get what I mean).

They are looking at the past of that single moment, not any motivations.

One, they do care where you come from. For instance, not everyone sticks around after an accident. Once they find out where you're from, it can help lead them to where you now are. Investigators do this to find suspects in states, work places, friend's places, favorite venues of entertainment, their homes, et cetera. All of which can afford investigators with more of the information that they will need to find and/or convict a suspect. And using that same example, where it's a hit and run accident, they'll definitely want to know where you're going, which usually leads to finding out where you're from. And why? I don't even have to answer that; the answer should be obvious enough.

They do not care where your starting point was.
They do not care what your destination was.
They do not care why you drove there and why you came from your starting point.

Anyway, given enough time, it's no surprise that Ryoga eventually manages to find where he wants to be. But China is not where he normally wants to go

Did you miss the part where he followed Ranma to China to get revenge?

or even did any pushing, which isn't the case.

So Ryoga fell down sideways down the cliff because he was that surprised?

Anyway, my argument still stands; and I'm just repeating myself, besides. All I'm doing is defending an opinion, anyway, so I don't see any reason to continue arguing. I need to get back to writing my story, anyway.

All you say amounts to the same: You want to blame the victim. And that is - as you would put it - wrong, wrong, WRONG, wrong, WRONG.

[Kyoumen]

The child wasn't in sight when Ranma was half way finished throwing the punch. Either that kid was fast, or Ranma was throwing a stupidly slow punch. Either way the kid had to have put himself in the way of the punch after Ranma started punching, and had plenty of time to at least try to avoid Ranma's fist.. It's the little kids fault, and possibly part of a con.

You... I... did you seriously just argue... bwuh....

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

The child wasn't in sight when Ranma was half way finished throwing the punch. Either that kid was fast, or Ranma was throwing a stupidly slow punch. Either way the kid had to have put himself in the way of the punch after Ranma started punching, and had plenty of time to at least try to avoid Ranma's fist.. It's the little kids fault, and possibly part of a con.

You... I... did you seriously just argue... bwuh....

What a dastardly child! He's lucky that Ranma is such a forgiving person or he would have given him such a thrashing for trying to deceive him!

[Cheb]

which means that he hadn't been paying attention and, thus, could not have been in a condition to do anything.

Not paying attention is exactly his fault (or it is not, depending on how you justify him snapping after getting cursed). Someone of his caliber not paying attention is like someone driving a car while blindfolded -- and Ranma could do much more damage than a car. That person would be fully at fault for creating a potential danger that actualized in a real accident. Not yours, because you thought that sidewalks were safe.

Just look at the accident with Kodachi. ranma had enough speed to catch her falling off the roof when he noticed that his teakettle hit something.

The child wasn't in sight when Ranma was half way finished throwing the punch. Either that kid was fast,

[facepalm]

[Zwzn]

How do we know there was a cliff next to Ryoga when he jumped to avoid the panda?

Why is everyone taking Ryoga a known lier at his word when he has reason to be lying?

Since the question is whether "it's okay to do dangerous things as long as it's in the wilderness, because no one else 'should' be there", probably the closest analogy I can think of would be to hunting accidents. If you go out deep, deep into the wilderness, and start shooting off a gun without carefully checking your fire, and by some horribly unlikely coincidence you happen to hit someone you had "no way of knowing" would be there, then guess what? It's your fault. Just switch out "shooting recklessly without paying attention to what you're shooting at" for "charging along a cliff at Ranma-class-martial-artist-velocities while paying such utterly little attention that you don't even realize it after you do hit someone."

Which makes Ryoga's story suspect.

Except that we can clearly see that the impact had a very large effect, making talk about "likelyhood" moot. Ryouga's upright when he jumps. Ranma hits him hard enough to knock him away headlong.

We never see the event. We see a story told by someone who does not clearly remember the event, and is a known lier.

Ranma does not remember the event at all, and is shown stopping to help people he does hit.

For all we know Genma threw something at Ranma as Ranma was passing Ryoga, and that is what knocked Ryoga

Either Ranma's forward momentum was just that great that even a glancing blow did that, or else we could say--since you're willing to ascribe "instinctual" actions to Ranma in that setting--that Ranma "instinctively" went the opposite way that you suggest, making a point of knocking Ryouga out of his way. (That kind of instinct, at least, would certainly fit far better with his so-berserk-he-doesn't-even-consciously-register-hitting-someone state than its opposite.)

In Ryoga's story Ranma was going around and over things. It is pretty much standard practice for Ranma to go around things rather then through them. Ranma had jumped before Ryoga was in view.

Are we even sure the event happened near a cliff? The area Ranma is shown to hit Ryoga seems like a forested area instead of on a narrow path..

You... I... did you seriously just argue... bwuh....

Yes, I just argued that the kid had enough time to avoid Ranma's fist, but instead seems to have purposely stopped himself right in the path of Ranma's fist. There was no sign of that kid just a frame before.

Why Ranma is practically on his knees, and throwing a punch at a wall he can't reach is a different question.

[Crescent Pulsar R]

@claymade: That would be a nice analogy if that had indeed been the question. But it wasn't.

@Tornado Ninja Fan: I'm glad I stopped arguing, because those comebacks were terrible.

@Zwzn: Yeah, I wouldn't automatically put my faith in what Ryoga says happened, either.

Now, rather than argue, I'll show why it's wrong to place all of the blame on Ranma. I'll be using simple mathematics to accomplish this.

Here's one of your arguments:

Ranma ran into Ryoga = Ranma's fault.

See the problem with this equation? Yeah, it's not an equation: it's essentially a forgone conclusion that's being made.

Here's another one:

Ranma knocked Ryoga over the cliff = Ranma's fault.

Same problem, same result.

So, what's missing from this rationale? Simple:

Ranma ran into Ryoga + Ryoga is near a cliff = Ryoga falls over the cliff.

What's different? For one, it's now an equation. And, two, the answer to that equation isn't a subjective opinion, but plain and simple fact.

Had it been:

Ranma ran into Ryoga + Ryoga was nowhere near anything from which he could fall = Ryoga stumbled/fell to the ground.

Then Ranma would have been responsible for a minor fault. However, since that wasn't the case, and only Ryoga's decisions had led him to being so close to a cliff, then, all things being equal, they share equal responsibility for the end result.

Now, let's examine the next aspect of this incident.

Ryoga jumped into the air without any knowledge of Ranma being present + Ranma jumped into the air without any knowledge of Ryoga being present = they both unwittingly set upon a collision course in midair.

Since it's a complete coincidence, neither can be blamed for it. The direction and speed at which they were traveling has no relevance on the matter.

Next concerns Ranma's state of mind.

Genma pledged to make Ranma a man among men + Ranma, in Genma's care, was raised to be a proud man + Genma, while somehow not noticing his changed body and/or noticing but intending to get even (doesn't matter which), managed to give Ranma a curse that turns him into a girl = Ranma is blind with rage.

To some, this will excuse Ranma, because it's understandable. For others, it won't. Either way, the result, up until just before Ranma and Ryoga inevitably collide, is Genma's fault. And if you feel like going further with it, you could even say that Genma is ultimately responsible for Ryoga's curse since he is responsible for Ranma's state of mind when they collide. It'd be similar to Genma being a golfer, and Ranma the ball. Sometimes how Genma handles that ball sends it straying from the course he desired, and then there are times when he slices his shot so badly that it hits an unassuming bystander.

It's arguable that, had he not been in that state, in all likelihood Ranma would have seen Ryoga and a better outcome could have been the result. Or, at least, we would have likely seen Ranma make some attempt to prevent what inevitably happens. In the end, everything that leads up to the incident is either both of their fault, none of their fault, or the fault of a third party. Put together, no one can truly be blamed alone, because that's just not how things add up.

And that's just surrounding the immediate factors that led up to the incident. The others that are relevant, though some have argued otherwise, take place before either Ranma or Ryoga set foot in China. These factors are for those who wish to place blame on one person, if blame must be cast, and if one is not satisfied with equal fault or null fault.

And so:

Ranma gets the last curry bread, via Ryoga's head + the other boys try to get more bread while Ranma walks away, which shows that he's not interested in any more = Ryoga takes personal offense for the bread being taken, not for his head being used as a stepping stone/including having his head used as a stepping stone (the result is the same), instead of going after more bread while Ranma is away, like everyone else.

Taking the last bread becomes a competition + Ryoga always loses = Ryoga takes even more personal offense instead of admitting defeat gracefully, and issues a challenge for a formal fight.

Ryoga sets the date of the challenge + Ryoga knows about his own bad sense of direction (as perfectly illustrated in the story where he's made to think that Yoiko (Ranma) is his sister, and says that, being his sister, that her sense of direction must be as bad as his) + Ranma waits for three days, in consideration for Ryoga's bad sense of direction = Ryoga assumes that Ranma ran out on their fight and "follows" him to China.

Which ultimately leads up to Ryoga deciding to walk near a certain cliff.

You can argue that it doesn't matter, but I don't care because my reasoning can't been refuted in the context in which I presented it. And if you were to put all of this into the context of Ryoga prosecuting Ranma in a court of law? Ranma would be deemed innocent because of too much in the way of extenuating circumstances. For one, you'd have to observe the act, which was taken before Ranma could have seen Ryoga. Next, in correspondence with that action, you'd have to take into consideration his state of mind at the time of said act, which we, as judge and jury, know that it came into being because of Genma, and that it is excusable because we know that it was inevitable, considering what happened and knowing how Ranma would feel about being turned into a girl. And then there are the circumstances that led up to it, which include Genma's decision to train at Jusenkyo, how Ranma had become blind with rage, how Ranma and Ryoga met, their contest for last breads, how Ryoga handled the issuance of the duel, why he followed Ranma to China, and how he happened to be near a cliff at the time of the incident.

What I get out of all of this is that, in none of these considerations will Ranma alone be to blame. Either it's no one, everyone, or it's Ryoga. And because I find it so variable, I haven't, and won't, decide on any one person; even if that one person happens to be Ryoga, who gives me no reason to care about him. You're welcome to think what you like, and disagree with me, but I'm obviously under the impression that my way of thinking is logical, considerate, and reasonable. But I'm silly like that.

[Zwzn]

There are a number of things odd about Ryoga's story I just noticed:

1) Ryoga knew about the odd panda being there, and Ranma's girl curse before he realized/remembered the angry girl form and the odd panda. Why would he have not made the connection sooner?

2) Why would Ryoga decide to jump over the panda? He did not bother to jump over a charging boar, he just hit the boar, and he had plenty of time to prepare for a charging panda.

3) Ranma seemed to be come down from the apex of his/her jump. It is possible Ryoga jumped into Ranma's knee.

4) There are mountains in the background making it look like he is in a valley with a forest in it. This does not mean there wasn't a cliff right there, but the way Ranma and Genma are depicted blindly running and jump makes it seem unlikely they are on narrow paths.

It would be rather humorous if it was a case of Ryoga getting lost as he fell to the ground, and ended up on a cliff above the springs.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

Ryoga jumped into the air without any knowledge of Ranma being present + Ranma jumped into the air without any knowledge of Ryoga being present = they both unwittingly set upon a collision course in midair.

Since it's a complete coincidence, neither can be blamed for it. The direction and speed at which they were traveling has no relevance on the matter.

Well, there is your mistake. Ryoga jumped upward in a direction where he didn't have to expect an obstacle. Ranma jumped forward in a forested area where he had to expect obstacles and couldn't see very far. It's like driving at night at full speed without turning the lights on.

And if you were to put all of this into the context of Ryoga prosecuting Ranma in a court of law? Ranma would be deemed innocent because of too much in the way of extenuating circumstances.

And another mistake. Extenuating circumstances led to diminished sentences, not acquittals.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

There are a number of things odd about Ryoga's story I just noticed:

1) Ryoga knew about the odd panda being there, and Ranma's girl curse before he realized/remembered the angry girl form and the odd panda. Why would he have not made the connection sooner?

Because he is an idiot blinded by revenge.

2) Why would Ryoga decide to jump over the panda? He did not bother to jump over a charging boar, he just hit the boar, and he had plenty of time to prepare for a charging panda.

He learned from experience. Jumping over rampaging animals leads to bad things.

3) Ranma seemed to be come down from the apex of his/her jump. It is possible Ryoga jumped into Ranma's knee.

That would have been a very long time for Ryoga to keep on moving upwards.

4) There are mountains in the background making it look like he is in a valley with a forest in it. This does not mean there wasn't a cliff right there, but the way Ranma and Genma are depicted blindly running and jump makes it seem unlikely they are on narrow paths.

It would be rather humorous if it was a case of Ryoga getting lost as he fell to the ground, and ended up on a cliff above the springs.

The cliff is right next to Ryoga on the first panel of the flashback. He seems to be on a relatively flat elevation between the mountains and the cliff.

[claymade]

Ranma ran into Ryoga + Ryoga is near a cliff = Ryoga falls over the cliff.

What's different? For one, it's now an equation. And, two, the answer to that equation isn't a subjective opinion, but plain and simple fact.

Had it been:

Ranma ran into Ryoga + Ryoga was nowhere near anything from which he could fall = Ryoga stumbled/fell to the ground.

Then Ranma would have been responsible for a minor fault. However, since that wasn't the case, and only Ryoga's decisions had led him to being so close to a cliff, then, all things being equal, they share equal responsibility for the end result.

But your "all things being equal" does not apply. "Walking at a normal pace along a cliffside", and "running at a breakneck pace along it without looking where you are going", are fundamentally non-equivalent things. They do not, by any stretch of the imagination, impart the same degree of risk to others that may be nearby. What Ranma was doing was dangerous to any bystanders; what Ryouga was doing wasn't.

So why on earth should we view those two actions as being equal, in respect to assigning responsibility for when the dangerous event actually occurred?

Genma pledged to make Ranma a man among men + Ranma, in Genma's care, was raised to be a proud man + Genma, while somehow not noticing his changed body and/or noticing but intending to get even (doesn't matter which), managed to give Ranma a curse that turns him into a girl = Ranma is blind with rage.

To some, this will excuse Ranma, because it's understandable. For others, it won't. Either way, the result, up until just before Ranma and Ryoga inevitably collide, is Genma's fault. And if you feel like going further with it, you could even say that Genma is ultimately responsible for Ryoga's curse since he is responsible for Ranma's state of mind when they collide. It'd be similar to Genma being a golfer, and Ranma the ball. Sometimes how Genma handles that ball sends it straying from the course he desired, and then there are times when he slices his shot so badly that it hits an unassuming bystander.

You're... seriously saying that if you do something because you're enraged, it's no longer your fault anymore--it's the fault of whoever made you angry?

Holy crap, just think of everything we could excuse that way!

[Wyrd]

You're... seriously saying that if you do something because you're enraged, it's no longer your fault anymore--it's the fault of whoever made you angry?

Holy crap, just think of everything we could excuse that way!

This is actually a legitimate defense in American courts of law, though it is very hard to win with it. You have to convince the judge and jury that not only were you driven beyond reason by events, but that you had legitimate cause to be in this state and that you are not likely to enter such a state under normal circumstances(otherwise you are declaring yourself to be a danger to others and yourself). Ten minutes of talking to Genma would shift most people's opinions to blaming him instead...

[Zwzn]

Because he is an idiot blinded by revenge.

More reason for him to assume Ranma was the girl the first time he saw Ranma transform.

More reason for him to assume Ranma was the girl after seeing the panda in the bedroom.

He learned from experience. Jumping over rampaging animals leads to bad things.

You forgot to add the smily faces, right? Ryoga by this time in his life would be an extremely experienced traveler and fighter. He should have already known what would work best.

That would have been a very long time for Ryoga to keep on moving upwards.

Ranma was moving extremely fast, and jumped before Ryoga did. Ryoga was going up as Ranma was going down. From what we see Ryoga jumped into Ranma's knee from underneath, and was not paying attention to his surroundings before hand. Had Ryoga not jumped it is possible Ranma would have gone right over Ryoga's head. Ryoga could have gone to the left or the right to avoid the panda.

If you are not paying attention, and decide to avoid something by jumping into the street, and then get hit by a car that had no time to stop, or try to avoid you, the driver is not at fault. Ryoga is the person jumping into the street, and Ranma is the car in this case.

Ryoga often does not pay attention to what he is doing, or where he is.

The cliff is right next to Ryoga on the first panel of the flashback. He seems to be on a relatively flat elevation between the mountains and the cliff.

That is a montage of Ryoga's travels to get to the place he met up with Ranma and Genma, and not where Genma nearly ran him over. You can tell by the narration. It was likely those mountains in the background.