Questioning Ranma's Honor

[Necavit]

Fair enough, I havnt read the Ryu arc in ages.

As for the the Ranma vs Ryoga, I could have swore it was first to fall "in"

But I do remember Ryoga later saying the first one beaten. So its all interperataion to what beaten entails.

As for the honour, if you agree to the fact that hes more of a morals man, than a honourable one, than not much to argue... But I dont understand the pulling up of different moral codes.

I thought it was assumed that we were using the commonly held notion of honour.

I mean, can you imagine someone saying "hey look over there!" than sucker punching the guy.

Were suppose to think, damn thats pretty scummy. That would seem the exact opposite of the commonly held notion of honour. If theres any culture in the world that thinks a sucker puch is ok, Id like to know about it.

Ranma's cool with getting a suckerpunch in.

[antimatterenergy]

But I dont understand the pulling up of different moral codes.

I thought it was assumed that we were using the commonly held notion of honour.

Honor codes not moral codes. What is honorable may not be moral or what is moral is not always honorable.

What is the commonly held notation of honor? There are dozens of honor codes and some differ radically. Several not only allow for sucker punches they allow for rape, murder, and torture (though some only allow for those in certain situations like war times - even give medals and commendations for those acts and others allow for it because it they do not disallow it since the honor code was not instilled to govern those values one of the Japanese honor codes for example was created to endear fealty to your lord and nation not prevent those acts -even specifically allows those acts if it benefits lord and nation). How can a person use the commonly held notation of honor when it is unclear as to what is the commonly held notion of honor (many people also mistakingly assume that moral means honorable)? Also alot of things like sucker punches are allowed for instance in one version of Shoalin Bushido not only are sucker punches allowed there is a kata that revolves on the use of verbal aggression, natural stances and sucker punches. (Info on the sucker punch kata came from an article in a 1988 issue of fighting times magazine)

[Necavit]

1. Moral codes was a typo, meant honour. Everyone has there own moral code, not everyone follows an honour code.
I know the difference.

2. Commonly held, refers to the fact if I go to any person on the street and ask.

Is a sucker punch honourable? What is the common anwser.

While your definition of different honour codes is interesting, if we drive down that road, were doomed to end up muddled.

Therefore I use a commonly held notion of honour, and this is what I am comparing Ranma to.

Ranma dosnt really care about honour, he cares about winning and his curse. These are two of his driving factors, and he will drop anything that impedes them.

[antimatterenergy]

refers to the fact if I go to any person on the street and ask.

That would depend on who and where your asking the question. A Muslim country would for instance give a different answer than someone living in the United States and if asked in some place else like China you may get yet another answer.

The majority of the readers to this site though most likely would have an English Judeo-Christian views on honor seeing as to how the majority of the readers are speaking English and likely live in areas that have a majority population of Christians. This does convey a significant percentage of the world population but I don't know if it is the majority hence common view seeing as there are over a billion Asians and a billion Muslims.

As for Ranma only caring about winning and his curse untrue there have been a few albeit very few instances of him choosing other things over winning and his curse. For instance he has consistently shown Akane is more important to him than both winning and his curse. There are times where he could have ignored/not saved Akane that he would have benefited. In one of the movies he destroyed a possible cure to his curse to save Akane and during volume 38 he destroyed the dragon tap when he knew one possible consequence would be destroying jusenkyo. Also he viewed defeating Herb to be more important than getting his curse unlocked. Winning and his curse are important to him but there are things more important whether his personal view of honor is or isn't is unknown because if he follows a code of honor and which he follows is unknown. He also has been shown to not have to win at everything some things like getting the highest grade or Ukyo and the priest drawing better than him did not bother him.

[Necavit]

*Smiles* Commonly held than would be whatever the majority say (Majority of the world, fine).

If you can beleive that the majoirty would agree a sucker punch is honourable, I concede.

My point is your taking a very unknown honour code, which we can assume Ranma dosnt follow. And all the diversity in the world wont make the majority of the world agree that a sucker punch is honourable.

Ah Akane, I knew she would come up.

Yea, she is a factor in the two. But Ranma consistenlty also drops her to win and a cure.
Relay race anyone? Romeo and Juliet? All for his cure. I know it might sound petty, but I ignore stuff that isnt cannon, so the movies out. The movies and alot of the anime (personally) I fell mangled Rumkio's work

Your example with Herb dosnt prove anything. He dropped his curse, to win. I never said which driving factor was stronger.

As for this drawing example with the preist, dont remember it. But when I say winning, I mean martial arts, thats what Ranma cares most about. I dont think he gives a damn about being the best at everything.

But its moot, because I will agree that Akane throws a wrench in the argument in the 38th manga. Ranma 1/2 is rarely serious, but this was a life or death situation, so its dosnt fall into the majority of the work.

So Ill reword myself. Ranma drops everything for his curse and winning, if it dosnt result in immenant death. If ya want to add Akane in there, sure go ahead. You still prove my point that honour is minor to him and his curse and winning are his driving factors.

Maybe Akane near the end.

[antimatterenergy]

You still prove my point that honour is minor to him and his curse and winning are his driving factors.

The whole point of my argument was that can't be proved. Without knowing if he follows an honor code or what honor code he does follow it can not be determined as to whether he views honor as a driving factor. May or may not view honor as important we simply do not have enough information to determine if he does or doesn't (also type of honor code may matter he may not care about personal honor but does care about family honor or some other type of honor or only care about personal honor, etc...) He could follow one of sports and several military leaders honor codes generally frowned upon by society at large (an extremely simple one as far as honor codes go) Winning is everything the only dishonorable act is to lose (This is actually counted as an honor code to some people).

[Necavit]

If it was important to him.

The author would have made it clear. That is the author's job.

Winning is important to his ego.

The author made that very clear.

The cure for his curse, is what it seems.

Therefore its safe to assume that his ego drives him to win. I can find proof of the ego easily. Its everywhere.

[antimatterenergy]

The author would have made it clear. That is the author's job.

Honor is generally culturally specific and is generally lost in translation. Even though I say that there is some evidence Ranma follows some type of honor code even in the VIZ translation:

The Engagements if Ranma has no honor or doesn't believe in honor at all they do not mean anything and Ranma has no reason to honor any of them or even stay in Nermia.

Another thing Ranma and Genma both mention duty of a martial artist is to help people and fight monsters so helping people is part of Ranma's honor code.

He has no reason to fear his mother making him commit seppukku if he doesn't believe in any honor code.

Ranma fought Mariko to avenge Akane's honor.

Also Ryoga and Ranma's bet for Akane would have been meaningless.

I know that the Japanese version makes more mention of honor for instance during the battle with Mousse where Ranma was trying to lose in the VIZ version he mentions that it would hurt Mousses pride in the Japanese version it mentions damage of honor.

I know for a fact other stuff was lost (puns, accents,sound effects, honorifics), changed(cultural references were changed to western ones and at least one was changed to an Indian one, also changed to fit word bubbles or censored for content like the cursing), or even added in translation (Gosunki is never given a first name in the Japanese version that is added on by VIZ). There are more than those examples listed. Things like honor could have been lost, changed, or just not recognized by Westerners, I don't have enough knowledge on Japanese (or Chinese, or martial art specific) honor systems to know if it was and what was.

[Necavit]

Heres what Ill give you Seppukku.

And If Ranma was so honourable he would go to his mother and not hide.

The engagement. Yea so honourable that he has how many finacee's? And dosnt he continually protest it at the start?

At any time he wants to, he can tell the other girl that it aint going to happen. It is his choice to string em along.

He finally makes the choice at the end when he attempts to marry Akane, If he had had the guts to tell Ukyo and Shampoo, mabye it wouldnt have gone so bad.

Martial artist duty; err ok, I guess that could count, but it seems like more of an afterthought in any story it appears in. Has it every driven Ranma to do anything, he wasnt going to do?

Staying in Nermia... are you joking? Hes got a roof over his head, and three meals a day. A real life. He is quite happy living with the tendo's. Honour does not keep em there.

Mariko, and Akane's honour, dont make me laugh.
He yelled out that he could see Akane's panties just to win a duel, publicly shameing her.
Akane's honour means little. His over protective nature got him caught up in a conflict with Mariko.

Finally the bet, and I see no proof that the bet isnt useless... even if Ranma lost I dont beleive he would have given up on Akane, but we can never be sure can we?

Lost in translation? Sure, I can buy that, I can only read what I got and this is what I have come to.

[antimatterenergy]

I'm not arguing that Ranma is honorable only that he has some type of honor code. While telling his mother is the most honorable thing it. He still has to have some honor else there is no threat from sepukku, since he is supposed to make the first wound by stabbing himself in the stomache and it is not a threat to someone without honor since he could just run away or not go through it.

The fiancee's are his father's fault and he only has two officially and Ukyo's is on shaky ground seeing how Uyko's father already knew Ranma was engaged and Genma gave Ranma the choice as per modern omai and Ranma did not choose Ukyo he choose Okanimayaki.

Not really his choice to string them along there all all kinds of possible repercussions in denying them as well and he did try and get rid of each of them on at least one occasion except for Akane.

If he had had the guts to tell Ukyo and Shampoo, mabye it wouldnt have gone so bad.

Actually he did not want to marry Akane at that time he attempted to get more time in volume 37 (VIZ 35) and he tried to start a fight with Akane to delay the wedding and get more time in volume 38 (VIZ 36). It could have easily gone much worse had he told Ukyo and Shampoo (we do not know how they would react or to what extent they would go also even if the marriage had gone through that would not necessarily stopped them from perusing him since Kodachi and Shampoo at least wouldn't let a minor thing like him being married deter them) and he wasn't given a chance at that point seeing he didn't know about the wedding until moments before it.

Has it every driven Ranma to do anything, he wasnt going to do?

Unknown the reason for why he is doing the stuff is not always given it could very well be the reason he does it in the first place.

Hes got a roof over his head, and three meals a day. A real life. He is quite happy living with the tendo's. Honour does not keep em there.

None of which matters to him and could be easily gotten elsewhere. What Nermia does not have is a cure to his curse which is not in Nermia it could be argued that he stays in Nermia to honor the engagement or because it's as good a place as any other we simply are not told his reasons.

My point is we can not say with any certainty as to whether Ranma is honorable or not because we do not know what, if any, honor code he subscribes to though there is some evidence of him having an honor code of some type (if nothing else some type of martial arts code that entails helping others and fighting monsters).

Your argument Ranma is not honorable, mine is from evidence in manga his honor is unknown and can not be conclusively determined since we lack evidence for or against though there is some evidence that he follows a code of some type but the full extant of that code is not told to us. Of course a lot of this is speculation as well as personal interpretation of events (some events can be interpreted differently like the bet with Ryoga seeing how it can be viewed as falling in first or being defeated) as well as biases (both character and cultural -not saying they are negative or positive biases but there still are biases, I admit to being some what biased in Ranma's favor seeing how he is my favorite character in fiction). My personal opinion is Ranma is more moral than honorable though he does subscribe to some honor code what it entails and to the extent he follows it is unknown.

As for interpretation (not really my opinion but is a possible interpretation) it could be argued that by not marrying anyone and stringing them along is the honorable thing. By not making a choice he is maintaining the situation until he has a way of dealing with it (or becomes a legal adult and has more options). Some could even argue that the only honorable solution is to the fiancee mess is to commit seppkku and appease honor, where as others could argue that the only solution is to marry no one ever, and others could argue the solution is to go ronin foresake the family name entirely, and others could argue that the honorable thing to do would be to have the Tendo's adopt him into their clan making all claims to him in the Soatome clan void (this is unlikely and not a very good solution since it is viewed as a feminine practice and would effectively kill off the Soatome clan).

[Necavit]

Wait one sec...

Your only arguing that he had some honour code?

Well than why are we arguing? That part is pretty clear, My argument from the get go, was that it takes a back seat to winning and a cure.

He does have some honour code, hence the P-chan oath,

We boh agree that hes more of a morals man than honourable. But...

Ill never buy in to the Fiancee stuff. He holds on to his girlfriends cause it feeds his ego.
Reversal Jewel. Genma this is all your fault!, dosnt cut it. It was Genma's fault to begin with, but Ranma did little to dissaude them. Its not his choice to string em along cause of pressures? Cmon, important things in life are never painless, he should bite the bullet.

Ya know Ive always wondered about the Seppukku, personally Ive always felt that Ranma's more afraid of dissapointing his Mom... mabye that just because ritual suicide seems so... alien to me.

But if this is your interpertation, well cant really argue that. Its why Ranma fanfics will always interest me.

Akane can be a saint, than a violent maniac and Ryoga can go from a friend to a murder to a rapist from one fic to the next.

[Cheb]

Ive always felt that Ranma's more afraid of dissapointing his Mom...

Or is he afraid for her too? The ritual suicide includes Nodoka as well - there would be no survivors of Saotome clan.

Hmm... a family suicide... I saw something like this in Takahashi's other works - namely, one of the Rumic Theater episodes.

[Zwzn]

Ive always felt that Ranma's more afraid of dissapointing his Mom...

Or is he afraid for her too? The ritual suicide includes Nodoka as well - there would be no survivors of Saotome clan.

Hmm... a family suicide... I saw something like this in Takahashi's other works - namely, one of the Rumic Theater episodes.

As I recall only Ranma and Genma would have to go through with Seppuku. Nodoka would just be standing there with a sword to all but lop off their heads if they where about to dishonor themselves by crying out in pain. A propper Seppuku can take days for the person going through with it to die of the self inflicted stab to the gut.

Given what is shown in the manga I am not sure Nodoka actually knows what she has to do. I think she might think she just has to lop off there heads, and I don't think she has enough skill with a sword to do her part.

[antimatterenergy]

In sepukku it is often viewed as cutting off the head, but actually cutting of the head is a great dishonor. A slight band of flesh is supposed to be left keeping the head attached to the body.

[camk4evr]

As I recall only Ranma and Genma would have to go through with Seppuku. Nodoka would just be standing there with a sword to all but lop off their heads if they where about to dishonor themselves by crying out in pain. A propper Seppuku can take days for the person going through with it to die of the self inflicted stab to the gut.
.

I recall her saying that after she cut off they're heads she'd use the sword to take her own life as well. I'd have to double check to be certain though.