NGE: And If That Don't Work?

[Sunshine Temple]

Cheb
Rei tilted her head slightly and noted just dead and fatalistic her voice could be.

"You're doing great, Kiddo!"
Misako reassured. "It's about to start.
two lines?

[Yah I'll put that up in the next version

You're a sadist, you know that? First Ranma, several times, now poor Shinji-kun... Well, at least the personality matches the gender now

[Yup ^_^
[That's a real fun part here. Shinji's personality matches being made female quite well.
[Poor guy.

Xon
My only comment is that the nuclear reaction in nuclear weapons occurs in the millisecond range, and you are doing a bait & switch with wattage & energy. Taking the wattage needed to defeat the AT field and assuming a second of exposure is somewhat outlandish.

[That's why I lampshaded it by having Ritsuko be exasperated at the wattage figure.
[And had her going.

[Also, it's not that outlandish. In ep 06 in the fight with Ramiel one could argue that the exposure to kill him is one second

[By going with a smaller exposure time you need less energy.
[Power is energy per time. Reduce the time and you need less energy.

Otherwise, it would be trivial to defeat it with regular artilery and guided missiles. Dumping a few hundred kilotons of conventional bombs is quite doable. Even making that amount of conventional bombs in a limited timespan would be trivial for a superpower todo.

[Yes. And conversely if you used the 180 million megawatt figure you could kill an Angel with a few FOAB or MOABs.

[Heck, on some of the Angels an N2 mine would do considerable damage.
[So the UN could just drop a few of 'em on an Angel and have a good chance of killing it.

[So yes I did to a bait and switch on this. I gave the angels a thousand times higher AT field power and then did the energy to power conversion on the conservative side.

[and it STILL takes fairly weak nukes to kill them.

[Cheb]

Power is energy per time. Reduce the time and you need less energy.

Unless the AT field also has an energy requirement (Ex. you need X energy to bring it down plus Y per second to overcome its recharging rate).

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but AFAIR the nuclear explosion duration grows with the power, and while a 10-kiloton-range charge gives a fracion of second flash, the megaton range explosions last for around 10 seconds? Or is this applicable to the fireball only?

[Xon]

Cheb, the actual nuclear reactor is very fast. It is just the larger the explosion the longer it takes for the energy to be dispersed into the enviroment, as there are pesky thermal transfer rates.

[Heck, on some of the Angels an N2 mine would do considerable damage.
[So the UN could just drop a few of 'em on an Angel and have a good chance of killing it.

Even the first Angel was crippled by a single N2 mine, why they just didn't hit it with more is one of those, many, things which don't make much sense in NGE.

[So yes I did to a bait and switch on this. I gave the angels a thousand times higher AT field power and then did the energy to power conversion on the conservative side.

[and it STILL takes fairly weak nukes to kill them.

I can understand that, NGE takes a large amount of handwaving to explain many of the plot absurdities away. (Evolution does not work the way the show assumes it works for one).

[Kilich]

Just a mostly random comment\idea.

As I remember, in the anime one of the angels was killed by a giant particle cannon that used all of Japan's powerplants and it made me wonder what energy weapons that are powered up by energy of explosions could do.

For example, I read in one of the documentary books (I don't remember the name. It was about high-tech weapon designs that were developed by USSR and USA) about a space-to-space nuclear blast powered laser that fires a fraction of second before the device is destroyed and is capable of vaporizing even ICBM warheads that are made to withstand heat from a high-speed re-entry in atmosphere.

As I understand it can achieve enough power to kill an angel, mounted and fired from a strategic bomber and that technology is most likely is known and can be reproduced in Evangelion world.

[DarkFyre99]

For example, I read in one of the documentary books (I don't remember the name. It was about high-tech weapon designs that were developed by USSR and USA) about a space-to-space nuclear blast powered laser that fires a fraction of second before the device is destroyed and is capable of vaporizing even ICBM warheads that are made to withstand heat from a high-speed re-entry in atmosphere.

I knew I'd read something like that on the 'web, and here it is!

Atomic Rocket: Space War: Weapons

A very realistic, technical, and science-based look at the many, many, many problems with the idea of space-based warfare seen in science fiction literature, movies, and T.V.

Search the page for "bomb-pumped" laser.

warning: if you read this site, you'll never look at Star Wars and Star Trek the same way again.

[Ellen Kuhfeld]

I can understand that, NGE takes a large amount of handwaving to explain many of the plot absurdities away. (Evolution does not work the way the show assumes it works for one).

This is one useful illustration ...

[Sunshine Temple]

Cheb

Power is energy per time. Reduce the time and you need less energy.

Unless the AT field also has an energy requirement (Ex. you need X energy to bring it down plus Y per second to overcome its recharging rate).

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but AFAIR the nuclear explosion duration grows with the power, and while a 10-kiloton-range charge gives a fracion of second flash, the megaton range explosions last for around 10 seconds? Or is this applicable to the fireball only?

[The TNT figure is applicable to the actual blast itself.

Xon
Cheb, the actual nuclear reactor is very fast. It is just the larger the explosion the longer it takes for the energy to be dispersed into the enviroment, as there are pesky thermal transfer rates.

handwaving here.

uclear device even works...
[That's a big question mark there.

[Heck, on some of the Angels an N2 mine would do considerable damage.
[So the UN could just drop a few of 'em on an Angel and have a good chance of killing it.

Even the first Angel was crippled by a single N2 mine, why they just didn't hit it with more is one of those, many, things which don't make much sense in NGE.

[Yup. That's one of the big problems for NGE

[So yes I did to a bait and switch on this. I gave the angels a thousand times higher AT field power and then did the energy to power conversion on the conservative side.

[and it STILL takes fairly weak nukes to kill them.

I can understand that, NGE takes a large amount of handwaving to explain many of the plot absurdities away. (Evolution does not work the way the show assumes it works for one).

[Indeed. The show isn't even consistent with the size of the Evas
[Now some of the problems can be explained away.
[Nerv's military incompetence is due to the priorities of Gendo and Seele.
[Like how the Geo Front could not withstand a conventional incursion from JSSDF

Kilich

Just a mostly random comment\idea.

As I remember, in the anime one of the angels was killed by a giant particle cannon that used all of Japan's powerplants and it made me wonder what energy weapons that are powered up by energy of explosions could do.

[Well that giant particle canon was what got me thinking of this whole idea
[If one of the angels with the strongest AT field was taken out with non-Eva tech (technically you didn't need to have Unit 01 firing it, and a non-eva mechanism could have given the shielding instead of Unit 00

For example, I read in one of the documentary books (I don't remember the name. It was about high-tech weapon designs that were developed by USSR and USA) about a space-to-space nuclear blast powered laser that fires a fraction of second before the device is destroyed and is capable of vaporizing even ICBM warheads that are made to withstand heat from a high-speed re-entry in atmosphere.

As I understand it can achieve enough power to kill an angel, mounted and fired from a strategic bomber and that technology is most likely is known and can be reproduced in Evangelion world.

[The eva world could have things like Project Orion.
[It is a world ruled by science run amuck.
[given the aircraft (both SSTO and gigantic EVA carrier planes) and energy canons they can build

DarkFyre99
I knew I'd read something like that on the 'web, and here it is!

Atomic Rocket: Space War: Weapons

A very realistic, technical, and science-based look at the many, many, many problems with the idea of space-based warfare seen in science fiction literature, movies, and T.V.

Search the page for "bomb-pumped" laser.

warning: if you read this site, you'll never look at Star Wars and Star Trek the same way again.

[Cool.
[Heh that's true.

[A bit of math can ruin a lot of soft science fiction.

Ellen Kuhfeld

This is one useful illustration ...

[Indeed.

[Once again to the warning at the end of the chapter:

" I'd like to remind my readers that this is a story with Evangelions in it and while I will try to keep the physics as sane as possible, I can't make any promises. "

[So, there will be some suspension of disbelief. Given the giant "robots" and all

[deathgeonous]

Oh, it was the Death Becomes Her, NGE Version I belive. And no Sunny, it was nothing stylistic, in fact I have no real clue why I couldn't stop thinking about that fic while reading yours, other then in by the cut off point that he had stopped writing it, Rei had accadently killed Ranma and she stuffed him into one of ehr clones. Really, the two are nothing at all alike, it's jsut that that was the first story I'ved read where someone other then Rei inhabist one of her clone bodies. So, sorry about saying that, it was that I just couldn't stop thinking about that little factiod while reading your fic and I had thought that maybe you had somehow drawn some slight inspereation from that fic. Ah well, I guess not. But, good job again on this fic.

[Sunshine Temple]

deathgeonous
Oh, it was the Death Becomes Her, NGE Version I belive. And no Sunny, it was nothing stylistic, in fact I have no real clue why I couldn't stop thinking about that fic while reading yours, other then in by the cut off point that he had stopped writing it, Rei had accadently killed Ranma and she stuffed him into one of ehr clones. Really, the two are nothing at all alike, it's jsut that that was the first story I'ved read where someone other then Rei inhabist one of her clone bodies. So, sorry about saying that, it was that I just couldn't stop thinking about that little factiod while reading your fic and I had thought that maybe you had somehow drawn some slight inspereation from that fic. Ah well, I guess not. But, good job again on this fic

[Ah.

[Well the clone thing is a big factor. Not too many fics use that convention. I think.

[Sunshine Temple]

James Axelrad emailed with some thoughts.
Reposted with permission

Your profile stated you did nto wish to be pm'd, so I am using standard email instead.
>>[Yeah, FF.net's PM system is not conducive to long replies.
i decided to send the long version of my comment on your newest fic this way. It ended up being decidedly on the long side, and mostly ideas for you to use or reject as you see fit in order to get more of the fic out faster.
>>[Heh Cool.

Here is the remainder of the comment;


*heck, you could even have some real fun with it. you could literally have 24 hour patrols of bear's on standby. since you have a fighter scaled weapon, a bear could prob carry several of them in one bomber. and the chances of bears not being in regular service would be nil.
>>[Yes, when you consider the scale of the cold war surplus and the sheer power....
*actually this is a somewhat backhanded joke referring to the fact that the Russians don’t throw anything away.
[There is that tendency.
*they also tend to continue using things long past when the west would. B52 not withstanding of course. Those are actually expected to be retired in 2045 or so, making them over 80yrs old.
[Indeed
>>[It stops becoming a question of *can* humanity stop the angels, but how can humanity stop them best.
*yeah. That’s why some of these types of fics can be a lot of fun to read.
[Yeah, it changes things a bit.
*for preemptive attack on an approaching angel, a brace of backfires would work well. in fact, if they are on nuclear pad alert, as soon as an angel is sighted approaching, they could sortie and at the very least, soften the angel up. this approach could make the fight against the twin angel a bit different. this is assuming that they are staged to bases in japan. prob wont change the fleet battle though with asuka, as nuclear weapons are contraindicated for navel actions;)
>>[All I can say about the fleet battle is... poor Asuka.
*cant wait to find out what you mean.
[Heh.
*i wonder though, other than the initial pulse of radiation, just how 'dirty' those devises are.
>>[That's a very interesting question. I'm not sure on that.

*how would evangelions stand up to the devices? granted, they work very well against the angels. from what i gathered of your description, they are basically a point blank attack with a vaguely shaped charge nuclear device. but if there is an eva in reasonably close proximity, but outside of the focus of the device, the eva would prob be ok, right? this could make the device a usable support weapon as well.
>>[They are scaled so that about a quarter of the bomb's power is needed to break an AT field.
>>[Presumably if an EVA were off to the side and it only got a few percent it would be "fairly" okay.
*I figured it would be scaled. The 25% side would be larger than the 90 angle, that is, the plane that is perpendicular to the axis of the 25% side. And that the majority of that 25% side would actually be removed from the direct opposite direction of the 25%.
*it might seem like a lot, but when you get down to it, its merely an impressive technological achievement. It would still be a large explosion. Now if the focus had 75%, then you would really have something. Its morealong the lines that you alluded to. The 25% is merely making it forceful enough to allow the use fo a warhead small enough to be mounted in a large missile. The one you chose being a shipkiller.
[I decided to keep the advances on the nuclear front relatively sane.
[Given how powerful they actually are.
*the interesting thing though would be how dangerous to the evas a true tactical nuclear weapon would be.
[Similar danger to them as would be to an Angel.
*of course, this is another point. you are basically using theater nuclear weapons in a tactical role. what about tactical nuclear weapons in a tactical role? apply the Russian warhead to the American artillery shell design. i know for a fact that the army's ww2 atomic annie was a truck mounted 12 inch naval gun. also, the Iowa class battleships had a shell designed for them that was a nuclear device (no word on whether they were built of course;). and the evas are capable of using heavy caliber 'small arms'. why not apply these to the evas arsenal? with the angel's at field neutralized, or even partially neutralized, a tactical nuclear weapon of similar design to the air launched devices would probably be devastatingly effective. all you would really need to do is come up with a proper and effective safety device for the weapon deploying the shell or rocket. perhaps a release signal from nerv? if the release signal is not present, any shell fired is not armed? its proven fact that a modern nuclear device that is not armed will not go off, will not 'cook off', and at worst, will have a failed detonation. also, these small nuclear devices would have a fraction of the problems and side affects of the full scale devices.
>>[Yes, with an AT field up you need a lot more power than if the Eva neutralizes it.
*was talking with someone else, he raised the point that you would prob need tactics to do it. Either neutralize the at field and fire a tactical nuke from cover since the evas own field is being used to neutralize the angels, that is, if you have that negate the evas own field, or, can a second eva be used to make a second field to protect the two evas from the nuclear device?
[Organization is required.
[And the question is if the first EVA will have AT field protection.
hell, i know for a fact they had them that small, i saw on a tv show that the idiots in the 50's-60's actually designed MAN-PORTABLE nuclear weapons. you could fire the damned thing off the back of a jeep. Look up the M-388 Davy Crockett if you wanna see how ridiculous the thing is. Course, looking through the article, it also states they made roughly 2100 of the things.

*basic checks result in finding that they also had at the very least, mockups of 155mm artillery shell devices. This would mean that you could have nuclear payloads for the pallet rifles, or a semi auto version of the eva rifles.
>>[*coughs*
>>[A "pepperbox" style gun may also work. Given the simplicity of the action.
>>[And that if one needs more than six or so shots, then another gun can be grabbed.
*well, with 155mm nuclear devices. You would merely need to make a cased version, and they would interface directly with the eva’s existing weapons. Then you could have semi auto, 3 round burst, or full automatic delivery of up to half kiloton devices.
*as I recall, the evas automatic rifle was probably using cased 105mm, 120mm, 155mm, 3inch, or 5 inch standard rounds. don’t think they ever bothered to fix it. But 155mm ammo would be a logical choice for evas. The ammo itself is already in existence, but 5 inch naval rounds would have more choices, included armor piercing, high explosive, laser guided, gps guided, and recently, rocket assisted guided munitions. Those give ranges of 60 naughtical miles or so
[The question is if they would want to have rapid fire on nukes like that..
*course, you could have something that takes MLRS cartridges. That would be decidedly nasty. That would also give you the pepper box style launcher. An MLRS cartridge is 6 dumfire rockets, or gps guided munitions. tracked MLRS units carry two, and the wheeled version 1. course, you could prob have a laser or radar guided munitions in it.
[That is the pepperbox style yes.

*anyway, my point with all this is that I think you have a definite avenue to explorer with the application of nuclear weapons to this situation.
>>[Indeed. And things like N2's
>>[Say the AT field is down, well a shaped N2 right into an angel will ruin it's day.
*true, but since they never state what sort of munition the n2 mine is, its hard to judge how they would work.
[Indeed. They are non-nuclear which gives some advantage.
*and, how small can an n2 mine be? You never see them as any thing but what appears to be the business end of a fuel air explosive that is so large, it would need something like a c17 or larger to deliver.
[That is an interesting bit. And how small they become depends on exactly how an N2 works.
*i think having those generals become involved in things is a good idea as well. misato still has her place though i think. she could also become the interface for the pilots to the generals. or better yet, a bit of a buffer. she is prob better able to process information to give to the pilot. hmm, perhaps similar to having a backseater? she would reduce the pilots workload by filtering the information coming from the tactical bridge. having those generals continue at nerv could be a very good idea even if they don't assume overall command. simply assisting in the battles, to keep things on track. you coudl also simply have it all come down to misato's training not really being correct for the eva's. they are basically giant infantrymen, not combat vehicles. so misato's knowledge is not completely applicable to the eva's, whereas the army general knows exactly how to employ the eva. you coudl have shinju and rei get infantry training in tactics. it woudl probably make them far more effective. perhaps not as much of the physical stuff.
>>[
*?
[Opps.
[Yes, Misako can have a more squad leading role.
[Yup, infantry training is one of the better ones to how Evas work
*anyway, sorry to type your ear off, but i hope you continue this fic, it definitely has some unique items, and its an interesting fic. hope some of the stuff i rambled on about helps too.
>>[No problem.
>>[Thanks for the commentary. It's great to see interest in the story.
*anything to help get more chaps out. Sometimes just throwing ideas helps, even if the author rejects them all.
[Indeed.
>>[Can I have your permission to post this exchange on the Fukufics forum?
*sure.
[cool

[deathgeonous]

Yeah, I only know of three that use that clone thing, you, E-Type and Foxboy. Wish he'd update. Ah well, what can you do? Hell, even I'm not updating right now, so who am I to complain, sheesh!

[Sunshine Temple]

Yeah, I only know of three that use that clone thing, you, E-Type and Foxboy. Wish he'd update. Ah well, what can you do? Hell, even I'm not updating right now, so who am I to complain, sheesh!

Heh. Well hopefully this idea will be kept live.

The current plant is to have this, Return, and Strained Harmony as my front burner fics.

We'll see how that goes.

[deathgeonous]

Blink, Strained Harmony you say? Wow, I thought that that one wouldn't be updated for forever, more due to trimatter then you, but... yay to any updat there!

[borgrabbit]

She would have to make sure, Rei's room got a bit more... personality.

Comma is unnecessary in this instance.

Still a good read at the second round.
Wes

[khim]

As I remember, in the anime one of the angels was killed by a giant particle cannon that used all of Japan's powerplants and it made me wonder what energy weapons that are powered up by energy of explosions could do.

More or less the same as that cannon. May be more. The problem is: at least 30% of power is dissipated in the canon itself (probably 50% of power) and it does not matter if this power comes from the power grid or nuclesar explosion: the cannon will be melted anyway.

It's 100% useless to try to apply real physics to anime, especially Evangelion. Unless it's "how many violatios on physical law per episode" contest. Kind of poinless. The same goes for every other anime fiction. For example succubae in "The Return" obviously can not fly - but it's solved by applying "it magic" label where appropriate. When anime tries to give you some "scientific" explanation it's gibberish 10 times out of 10. When it's explained like "it's magic - physical law does not apply" and I can buy this explanation, but when you are "trying to keep the physics as sane as possible" the question arises: WTF? It's impossible and pointless - why spend time on that?

P.S. Do you know that patawatt lasers (that's 1000 million megawatt) are real-world instruments, not finction, right? Of course they don't operate for a second per impulse and they don't require the power of Japan to power them either Just FYI.